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Author Topic: Repair of old 10MS projector
Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 15, 2014 11:12 PM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I picked up a 10MS B&H projector and discovered the belt had "melted" so no projection even though the lamp works and the reels turn. I've got about 45 200' reels of Super8 to digitalize and turn into DVDs for two sons using my Canon HF20 and iMovie. It got too expensive having it done professionally, and I actually get a better product when I do it myself--even with my B&H 1623. But, I really need a variable speed projector, so picked this one up for $20 plus shipping. Question: What do I oil (and with what) and check for besides changing the belt (which I have ordered)? The awful black goop pretty much made a mess inside the case. Been cleaning that with alcohol and some nail polish remover.

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted November 16, 2014 12:03 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ron...Welcome to the forum!!! First continue to clean up the black goo from all components. I use alcohol and Goo Gone. Second wait for the new belt to arrive and install it. Then run the motor with no film. Determine if the supply reel and take-up reel spindle turn. .. the lamp lights...and that the speed control works. Listen for any loud noises ... like the motor grinding or gears clacking. If it runs and sounds ok, then you can add a little grease to the gears. You should not need any oil unless the motor is grinding. Look for a synthetic grease like SuperLube and a light All-in-One oil.

The 10MS is not a robust machine, but it does do a fairly good job at realtime telecine transfers. A couple problem areas I've encountered are in the supply reel assembly where the gear can become cracked and the framer adjustment stops working.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 16, 2014 06:43 AM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Janice. Sorry I haven't been able to find all the little keys to upload a photo. Your responses have always been a highlight of this forum even before I joined. My only goal is to be able to get enough service out of it with the 18 fps adjustments to get better non-flicker movies digitalized than I get with my own B&H 1623. Is there any problem with timing the 3-blade shutter when replacing the belt?

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Ken Finch
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Herne Bay, Kent. U.K.
Registered: Oct 2011

- posted November 16, 2014 09:46 AM      Profile for Ken Finch   Email Ken Finch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Ron, Welcome to the forum. Fitting a new belt should not affect the speed control if the variable speed control is of the variable resister type which controls the motor speed as fitted to most of the older silent film projectors. I have done quite a lot of film transfers on all the narrow gauges. Here in the U.K. because of the PAL system and electricity system, the flickerless results require a projection speed of 16.33frames per sec. with a 3 bladed shutter.
I suggest you do as I do to acheive this with a variable speed projector.
1.Run the projector for about 10 mins to warm up the motor.
2.Lace up the film. start the film and focus. Then remove the film.
3. Run the projector with no film and switch on the lamp.
4. Line up the camera set to standby and adjust focus and zoom so that the image slightly overfilms the frame.
5. adjust the speed of the projector until the white image in the viewfinder ceases to flicker and switch off projector.
6. Re lace up the film, start camera recording, start projecting film and adjust camera focus and zoom so that the image slightly overfills the viewfinder.
I find it helps to have some scrap film or long numbered leader at the start of the film so that the images you want to record are in sharp focus and size. I use my camera in the Auto setting and get good results using this method recording off screen, with fairly small image in subdued light. Much better than using these gadgets you fix in front of the projector and camera. Hope this helps. Ken Finch.

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 16, 2014 09:54 AM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken,
Thanks for the greeting and the advice from way "across the pond." Very helpful, especially in the preparation process. I've already done a bit of recording with my camera, but the closest I could get was either a 15fps or a 24fps. Neither of course eliminated the flicker (looked even more like the old movies they were-back to the 70's). Your "warm up" approach makes good sense. Hopefully, replacing the belt will be the only fix I need to proceed with the recording.

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted November 16, 2014 10:05 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As Ken has just stated...if the projectors is running properly, you shouldn't have any problem adjusting the speed to sync up with your camcorder. Being that you are in the US you will have to speed up the projector to around 20fps and set your camcorder to 60fps or 30fps, which ever reduces flicker best. You will have to reduce the speed after transfer in your video editing program. Use manual focus and turn off stabilization. Auto white balance should be fine. White balance can always be adjusted in post.

Here are a couple of videos I did using the 10MS and the Keystone 2500 for telecine. Both projectors are very similar in design and I demonstrate 2 different telecine methods.

Bell & Howell 10MS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVT6K5hsZC4

Keystone 2500
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjSo892DKms

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 16, 2014 11:19 AM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice, thanks again for your good counsel. Nice job on the YouTube videos and the family footage with a mother and son (You?).
I've posted several U-tubes (mostly unlisted for my work and family) and am just beginning to explore Vimeo. Do you have a preference, and if so why? I began to be disappointed with YouTube adding their ads at the end of my work.
Also, I noticed your screen size for capturing the film projected. Do you have a recommend X by Y size on the 4:3 ratio? Live in CA for 8 years (64-72), mostly Pasadena and Anaheim. Still have in-laws in Camarillo. "Hello out there."

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted November 16, 2014 12:57 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The mother and son are no relation...just some footage I bought to test and demo the projectors. As far as the projected size goes...I have to admit I'm not very scientific. What I have done in the past is mount a 10" x 8" piece of a white foam sheet (white paper will work as well) on the wall and project an image to fit inside. Then I just line that image up in the center of the camcorder screen. I zoom in as much as possible during the capture so I don't have to do too much zooming in post.

Here is a video of one of my earlier setups That will give you an idea of size. FYI...this film IS my youngest son [Smile]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_qYHymUJys

I use both YouTube and Vimeo. I don't like the ads either...but people search more on YouTube and are becoming use to the ads. In the past when I was doing corporate and production videos I would post to Vimeo and for some of my personal family vids. I sometimes post to both.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 16, 2014 01:13 PM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice,
Boy, those young sons in their cribs all look pretty much the same in these old films. Fun!
Thanks for this video, very helpful. You're the first I've seen shooting from the side. I may try that. Previously i've gone over top of the projector.
Your former employment helps me understand how this has become your labor of love AND expertise. For all of us out here, THANKS.

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 21, 2014 12:36 PM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, the belt has arrived and been installed--no problem. I selected an old Super8mm small reel and after noting that everything worked, tried to do the auto load. Jammed before even getting past first sprocket. Removed the crinkled film. Trimmed it. Tried again, wouldn't take the pick up during load. Any thoughts?

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted November 21, 2014 04:49 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ron...when you say "wouldn't take the pick up during load" do you mean it jammed again in the gate?

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 21, 2014 06:33 PM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, it started to take the film in but began folding it before it got around the first cog gate. I saw nothing was coming out, so stopped the machine, unplugged it, took the cover off, and saw the accordioned film.

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted November 21, 2014 09:46 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here are just some basics to check:

Make sure you trim the end of the film. If you don't have a trimmer just round the end of the film with scissors.

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Check to make sure the gate is clean and free of any broken film. Just remove the lens to access the gate area.

Make sure the projector is set to the proper film gauge that matches the film you are running.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 22, 2014 08:25 PM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Been out of range for communication all day and will work on the problem tomorrow. Everything looked good before the attempt to load it. I'll review the process and check again the trim on the end and see what happens. something just seemed out of sync. Thanks for the suggestions.

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 23, 2014 09:05 AM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Had a chance to try again. SUCCESS. I'm delighted to get the film loaded, see the projected image, and listen to the smooth operation. I think the problem was I used a film clipper from my other B&H projector to trim the leader. This time I used the one supplied with the 10MS, and things worked smooth as silk. Now, ... onward to the recording process on the digital camera trying the variable speed adjustments to eliminate the flicker. I'll post again later on that step. Thanks to all for your help.

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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John Last
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 104
From: Codsall, UK
Registered: Dec 2012

- posted November 23, 2014 04:09 PM      Profile for John Last   Email John Last       Edit/Delete Post 
Ron, I had a Eumig P8 that had melted gooey all inside it. After experimenting, I found that "Swarfega" hand degreaser worked a treat and by using lots of paper kitchen towels it was soon as good as new.

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 24, 2014 08:19 AM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks John. I still have a little clean up ahead, but I'm getting there. I appreciate the suggestion.

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 26, 2014 02:59 PM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice,
Using a 10MS projector how does one know how far to turn the variable knob to arrive at 20fps? And can I really eliminate all the flicker? My Canon HF20 has PF 15,30, 60, 100, etc. or a 24 in CINE mode. So far, I've only tried to eliminate the flicker with light projection on the screen using the "load" setting without the film running. I haven't found the perfect speed yet without flicker. Is this a good way to find the right combination or should I go with the film running and adjust the variable speed control? Looking forward to finding the best non-flicker settings and getting started "for real."

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted November 26, 2014 03:21 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ron, set your camcorder to 60fps and test with film. Just adjust the speed until you visually don't see any flicker. If the projector is running well the 10MS will do a good job of eliminating flicker. If you still see some flicker ...try setting your camera to 30fps. This sometimes helps.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 26, 2014 03:30 PM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks again. Will give it a go and get back to you. Happy Thanksgiving.

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 28, 2014 01:56 PM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, this would be easy if I weren't a "perfectionist." I'd just go back to my B&H 1623 projector and not worry about the flicker. The old 10MS variable speed projector gives that benefit but also lots of challenges: (1) "hairs" repeatedly showing up, even after cleaning (do they come from the film or the dirt in the projector?); (2) slightly darker shadow area in lower right of the projection image; (3) confusion over PF30 and Tv60 both appearing as my Canon HF20 settings (which is it or what's the issue?); and (4) whither to use the auto white balance in recording or just make the color adjustments in final edit mode. I've run the film probably 10 times, but either the emerging "hairs" or other issues cause me to try again. Any thoughts?

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted November 28, 2014 06:32 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ron...Your HV20 should be set at PF30 and TV60. I use a a Canon HV40 for all my captures and it works fine. In addition to cleaning the projector gate...You need to clean all your film BEFORE trying to transfer. You will have less problems with fuzz and hairs when the film is clean. I don't know how severe the dark spot in the corner is showing, but make sure the frame opening is very clean. Also, you can crop the image in your video editor after capture.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010

- posted November 28, 2014 08:14 PM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yah...well I use a IUD in place of the IOU so that there is no SNAFU! 10-4?

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Ron Crandall
Junior
Posts: 16
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted November 29, 2014 10:41 AM      Profile for Ron Crandall   Email Ron Crandall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice,
Thanks again. I ran the film through a lens cloth on a fast rewind (a full 7" reel) and that solved part of the hair problem. I also discovered that if I stopped the projection and the recording when a hair did show up, and reversed the projection, after a few feet the hair disappeared and I could start recording again from where it first appeared. Making progress, and still learning. Is there a substitute for film cleaning solution? I just used the cloth dry.
No comment on Pasquale's suggestions.

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An old 8mm, S8mm, VHS, and digital video nut

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

- posted November 29, 2014 10:57 AM      Profile for Martin Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As a matter of course, during transfer I always pass the film through a "sandwich" of Velvet cloth immediately before the top sprocket. This removes any dust or hair acquired on the film since it was last cleaned.
I actually use a "film cleaner" attachment from an Elmo (Goko etc.) Editor/Viewer. The felt is easily cleaned with a soft brush between reels.
VERY effective!

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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