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Author Topic: 50 Rolls of 16mm Home Movies
Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted March 09, 2012 08:33 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Today I received two boxes filled with about 50 rolls of movie film that my grandmother took starting back in 1948. My cousin had been storing them in her garage since my grandmother passed away 5 years ago at the age of 100. They were taken with a Bolex camera and have sprockets on both edges of the film. Some are in better shape than others, but from the smell unfortunately I'm pretty sure they have VS. Because of this I want to get them transferred to digital right away. I have an Elmo 16-CL that should be arriving next week. I haven't transferred 16mm before...but I can capture at 24fps so I'm thinking it won't be a problem.

My guess is that no one has seen these movies in 45-50 years. I know there's a lot of footage of me because my name is on so many boxes (I was the first grandchild [Smile] ) I'm crossing my fingers that I can preserve some of these memories for my family.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Jon Addams
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 638
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Apr 2007

- posted March 09, 2012 08:53 PM      Profile for Jon Addams     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice,

Looks like you are going to enjoy those movies [Wink] [Wink] [Wink] . You will have absolutely no problems capturing at 24fps. The Elm0 16CL it's a very good projector.

Jon

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted March 09, 2012 09:30 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As always...Thanks for the encouragement Jon. I can't wait to get started [Smile]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Wayne Tuell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 488
From: Minden, NV
Registered: Jul 2009

- posted March 09, 2012 11:15 PM      Profile for Wayne Tuell   Author's Homepage   Email Wayne Tuell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice, does your projector you have coming have a 5 blade shutter? Even with 24 FPS you still need a 5 blade shutter or you will have flicker.

IF after you are done and have flicker, I'll transfer your films for you if you like. It won't cost you anything but postage.

Here is a video of my old school t.v. station projector that I use from time to time. http://youtu.be/Oy4AHmlCplM

Here is a transfer of a pretty beat-up print full of lines, tears, & it is shrunken. I used filmguard during the transfer and it helped it run smooth & hide a lot of the lines. http://youtu.be/P0K4MSnokCI

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www.16mmDrive-InFilms.com

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted March 09, 2012 11:39 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No it doesn't have a 5-blade shutter Wayne. I was hoping the projector had some speed tweaking adjustments...but it doesn't. If I get flicker at 24fps I'll try changing the belt to run at 18fps...I then can try using the Clear Scan mode on my camcorder. I've done this with my Super8 sound projectors running at 18fps...there was very little flicker. I also can use some AviSynth filters to get rid of the flicker. I guess I should have looked for a variable speed projector...I still might have too. I appreciate the offer...and I'll let you know how it goes...so standby [Smile]

[ March 10, 2012, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008

- posted March 10, 2012 01:36 AM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Even with a variable scan camera, you'll need to be running at 20 frames per second or faster with a three-blade shutter to get completely rid of flicker. With a 4-blade shutter, anything over 15 frames will work. I use an Elmo CL-16 ETC 15 (15 frames per second) to run 16mm silent speed film. I have found that most old 16mm silent film was shot more often at 16 fps than 18 fps, and by a wide margin. Often, you will find film shot at 12 fps, perhaps by mistake. In that case, I slow it down in NLE, although at a frame rate that slow, you will not have smooth movement. Even 16 fps is borderline for smooth motion. Using variable scan, you should be able to get flickerless 24 fps even with a 3-blade shutter, but the motion in your transfer will probably be about 50% too fast. Most home movies of that vintage are 16 fps.

I have transferred about 20,000 feet of 16mm silent in the past week or so. Whew.

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John Hermes

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

- posted March 10, 2012 09:34 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
A fine collection there Janice and no doubt there will be Kleenex
at the ready as you unspool these treasures.I can remember when
similar piles of film would be transfered to video,and then discarded,people thinking that their loved ones films transfered
onto tape would be permanent, so no need to keep the films.I
know that won't happen here.Happy viewing.

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010

- posted March 10, 2012 09:49 AM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
HI Janice

Good luck with your transfers. It is going to be a heart warming experience as well as a labor of love. I thinks it's great that you are so techno savy. If you were my wife we would be film poor if you know what I mean.

PatD

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Wayne Tuell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 488
From: Minden, NV
Registered: Jul 2009

- posted March 10, 2012 10:47 AM      Profile for Wayne Tuell   Author's Homepage   Email Wayne Tuell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, those variables make things a P.I.A. at times! That is one of the benefits of the digital age, we can adjust variable speeds with the click of a mouse. Strangely enough, the last two silent, double perf films I did were shot at 24 fps or close there to it. On playback at normal speed, no adjustments were needed.

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www.16mmDrive-InFilms.com

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted March 10, 2012 11:23 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, are you saying I should stick with recording at 24fps? ... and from what I'm hearing from you guys, it's the 3-blade shutter that is the problem...correct?

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008

- posted March 10, 2012 11:39 AM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Under normal circumstances, you won't be able to get flickerless transfers at less than 20 fps unless you have more than three shutter blades. If your films are 16 fps, they're going to look very fast at 24 fps. If you have an NLE with slow motion processing, you can apply that afterwards, which usually gives pretty decent results.

There are also the so-called "frame-by-frame" systems which use a modified projector and camera. It essentially takes a "picture" of each frame. Afterwards, these single pictures are chained together at whatever frame rate you choose. They are slower than real time in capturing the pictures and takes computer processing afterwards to chain the pictures together, but give you a lot of speed options.

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John Hermes

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted March 10, 2012 12:59 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All of this information has been very helpful. I didn't realize getting into 16mm would be so different than 8mm. I have a dual-8 MovieStuff Workprinter...so I know how nice the frame-by-frame method is. I've also had some very nice results with realtime capture also...so I was just hoping 16mm wouldn't be that difficult. Since the projector I'm getting will be 24fps...that's what I'm going to have to work with. I have a Canon XH-A1 camcorder and I use Premiere CS5 for NLE...along with AviSynth/VirtualDub scripts. If I can't get something acceptable with all this...well, I guess I'll have to cross that bridge when I get there.

I don't give up easily...I'm wondering how hard it is to install a 5-blade shutter [Smile]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008

- posted March 10, 2012 02:58 PM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you have variable scan, you shouldn't need a 5-blade shutter for 24 fps. I can get flickerless transfers on a regular Elmo CL by using the variable scan on my Sony camera head. Although a regular Elmo doesn't have a sync motor, it has been my experience that it runs true enough for transfer.

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John Hermes

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted March 10, 2012 10:09 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John...What model Sony camcorder are you using?

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008

- posted March 11, 2012 12:10 AM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't use a camcorder. It's a DXC-390 3CCD camera head which takes c-mount lenses.

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John Hermes

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted April 02, 2012 01:35 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I ended up buying a 1951 Keystone 16mm projector with variable speed. So far...it seems to be doing a pretty decent job of reducing the flicker.

Here's a little comparison clip from the 16mm film I've telecined and restored http://youtu.be/WqQfz4ccvy8

This footage is from 1947. The split screen shows the before and after results of the restoration process which envolved color correction...sharpening...and stabilization.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010

- posted April 02, 2012 02:33 PM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice!

Awesome job. That looks great. You are the bomb!

PatD [Big Grin]

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted April 02, 2012 09:42 PM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice,

That is really nice work! You cleaned up that footage very well indeed.

Keep at it,
Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted April 03, 2012 01:16 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Pat and Claus! It's fun bringing some life back into these old films. My grandma wasn't the greatest cinematographer (many headless people [Smile] )...but if it wasn't for her buying the movie camera...we wouldn't have these images to look back on today. It's really a mind-meld to see myself as an infant :-)

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

- posted April 22, 2012 07:06 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I finally got around to testing the Elmo 16-CL for flicker synchronization with my Canon XH-A1 using some of my old home footage. The camcorder was set to HDV-24fps and the projector at 24fps. Projecting to a mirror and ground glass setup...there was no flicker. This was very encouraging. However, the light on the projector is too bright and even with applying additional ND filters and manual exposure settings the whites become over exposed (hot spots). I think for telecine work I'm going to try replacing the 200W bulb with a 50W. I'll let you know how that goes.

In regards to the ability for the projector to run old brittle and somewhat curled reels of film, I have to say the Keystone K-160 did a far better job than the Elmo 16-CL. The Keystone was able to run all the reels, where the Elmo claw had problems with the moderate to severely damamged film.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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