Introduction and Asking for help

[Peter Bretan]

Hello everyone,
A newbie here ... so please be gentle with me.

My interest in 8mm cine films started with my late Father-in-law. He served in the Army during WW2 and was then posted to Korea. He was an avid photographer and shot numerous 8mm films of his many postings (e.g. Korea, Singapore etc.) and also his young family and their homes, pets ... caravan holidays. When he passed away we inherited his small collection of B&W and colour 8mm cine films, projector and cine camera (an Agfa Movex8).

Fast forward to Christmas 2019 when we hosted the annual family get together. We decided to have a Movie night and screened some of the cine films. I bought a vintage Eumig P8 projector from an online auction site. I needed to buy a replacement bulb as well. The projector worked a treat and we could watch the old films. Some of the films started to split and my first thought was that the projector was shredding the old film. Thankfully it wasn't the projector but old film splices that were coming loose. The film was easily repaired with new glue.

Buoyed by the successful movie evening, I decided to shoot some cine film. So I bought a double 8 Bell & Howell Sportser clockwork cine camera and some B&W film (rated at 100 ISO). I had some exposed film so I could test the camera operation (how much film is advanced over a given time etc.) and also how to load the film in almost complete darkness. So far ... so good.

So off I went with a camera loaded with film and shot various scenes over a three week period. I sent the film off for processing and received the processed film back a couple of days ago. My excitement quickly turned to disappointment. The film was almost completely black. Couldn't see any frames at all. When I ran the film through the projector I couldn't see anything on the screen. I know you shouldn't do this ... but when I peered into the lens of the projector I could see moving images that I could recognise (I didn't burn my eyes out in the process ... which says a lot). The camera was working ... but the film was almost black

I'm at a loss as to what could have happened. The film was rated at 100 ISO which is equivalent to 80 on the Western Scale. There are no internal light meters in the camera so no batteries; I used a hand-held meter to double check the exposure before shooting every scene.

I suspect that as the film was overall black in colour I may have a light leak somewhere in the cine camera, but not sure where. Does anyone have experience with the B&H Sportser camera? I was wondering if there should be a strip of foam or an 'O' ring along the side of the camera that opens, so that when closed it forms a good seal?

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could test the camera without the expense of shooting another roll of film? Has this particular cine camera gone past it's useful-by-date and is only fit for the bin?

Many thanks for your help

Pete

[Maurice Leakey]

Peter
If you could see something, however dark, the film was not fogged. I suspect it was badly out of date, or incorrectly processed.
ISO 100 is indeed Weston 80.
There is no foam or an O ring around the door.


Maurice

[Ed Gordon]

I suspect that as the film was overall black in colour I may have a light leak somewhere in the cine camera, but not sure where. Does anyone have experience with the B&H Sportser camera? I was wondering if there should be a strip of foam or an 'O' ring along the side of the camera that opens, so that when closed it forms a good seal?

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could test the camera without the expense of shooting another roll of film? Has this particular cine camera gone past it's useful-by-date and is only fit for the bin?

Pete, your problem is not a light leak. Assuming the film and developing were ok, I suspect the problem is your camera. What you describe is severely under-exposed film. Yes, that camera is well past it's useful-by-date. Double 8mm was replaced by Super 8 in 1965 and even Super 8 is on it's last legs. Having said that, only you can decide if it is "only fit for the bin". You seem to be having fun with this old technology, so why not continue? You could try taking the old camera apart to look for sticking parts, et cetera.

You might also consider taking on the task of digitizing the old 8mm film collection. Take a look at the "Film To Digital Conversion" section of this forum for information and tips.

[Paul Adsett]

Peter, I agree with Maurice and Ed, that the film was severely underexposed. I do not agree that your camera is "passed its useful-by-date", most of the old double 8mm cameras are built like tanks and will last for another 100 years. If you had a light leak through the door, or anywhere else, the film would be totally clear. The problem must lie in the lens, the aperture iris must be stuck at f22 or something. Unscrew the lens and look through it while rotating the f number ring and see if the iris is opening and closing. If it is not, then you need a new lens, or a new camera. I would highly recommend any of the Bolex 8mm cameras, the C1 being the least expensive, but nevertheless a superb performer.

[Dominique De Bast]

Strange. Didn't the previous owner use a grey filter that would be still on the lens ? By the way, I never heard of Weston (I'm still using the asa reference, like for the bulbs, I still use watts instead of lumens)

[Larry Byer]

As someone who was in the camera industry for 50 years including almost 33 years with Minolta. If you are really serious about getting into shooting 8mm movies. I would invest in a better camera with a zoom lens. I would do a search on eBay for 8mm cameras from Bolex, Canon, Nikon, and Minolta and see what is available in your price range. You could circle back here for advise before you pull the trigger. If the seller takes returns ,try the camera with a roll of film. to see if it works. If not all you would be out of pocket is return postage and a roll of film and processing. Just my two cents.

If I remember correctly 8mm film did not have to be loaded in the dark, just not in bright sun or bright indoor light. There was extra film on the spool to account for loading and unloading. You just had to watch the counter as you took your movies. You would load the film, run the camera for a few seconds set the counter and stop filming when the counter said end . Then run the camera until all the film was on the take-up spool and unload the camera in subdued light and have it processed.

Good Luck

[Dominique De Bast]

Larry, since double 8 stock has to pass twice in the camera (to be impressed on both sides of the width), many filmakers like to turn the spool in the dark to try to save as much as possible from what was taken during the first run in the camera. Also, with the cost of the filmstock in our times, the less you waste, the best

[Larry Byer]

Larry, since double 8 stock has to pass twice in the camera (to be impressed on both sides of the width), many filmakers like to turn the spool in the dark to try to save as much as possible from what was taken during the first run in the camera. Also, with the cost of the filmstock in our times, the less you waste, the best

That make sense, thanks

[Maurice Leakey]

Peter
1) Check the shutter is working correctly, and the speed is on 16 frames per second.
2) Tell us what film you used. Was it negative, or reversal?
3) Did the lab make any comment on the film's return?


Maurice

[Maurice Leakey]

Dominique
The Weston series of exposure meters were the top of the range items and used by most still and cine photographers.

http://www.westonmeter.org.uk/



Maurice

[Peter Bretan]

Peter
1) Check the shutter is working correctly, and the speed is on 16 frames per second.
2) Tell us what film you used. Was it negative, or reversal?
3) Did the lab make any comment on the film's return?


Maurice

Hi everyone,
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I rather like the retro look and feel of these old cameras. I also wanted to use a camera (and projector) that were 'in keeping' with the era that my late father-in-law was using his camera.

Answers to your questions Maurice:
1) I think the shutter was working correctly. Film speed set to 16 (there is a little notch on the speed scale). I tested the film advance using an old exposed film. One full wind of the clockwork motor lasted for about 25-30 seconds at speed 16. This ran about 5 feet of film through the camera.

The lens aperture is working ok, opens and closes when I turn the ring. I've just noticed that the smallest setting with a definite 'click' on the lens is f/16. If I turn the aperture beyond f/16 the lens becomes totally closed. It's possible I may have have done that a few times when shooting a scene as it was so bright. User error #1

For light metering, I used a Leningrad 4 meter. I set the central dial to 100. I took a light reading and matched the CINE scale 16 value to the closest aperture value (the CINE 16 value is opposite the shutter speed of 30 on the dial).

2) The film I used was "TOFC RX-100 BLACK & WHITE DOUBLE 8 (STANDARD 8MM) REVERSAL FILM" rated at 100 ASA

3) Unfortunately the lab made no comments apart from the fact the film was very dark.

I'm beginning to think that the film was totally under exposed and all down to user error rather than faulty equipment. I may have to buy another film and run some tests.

Thanks

Pete

[Maurice Leakey]

I've just noticed that the smallest setting with a definite 'click' on the lens is f/16. If I turn the aperture beyond f/16 the lens becomes totally closed. It's possible I may have have done that a few times when shooting a scene as it was so bright. User error

Peter
I think you've found the problem.
I've just taken my cine photo meter outside on a bright cloudy day and the exposure at 16 fps (1/32 sec) is f/22 using a 100 ASA setting.
The Sportster is probably a pre-war camera when films were much slower than they are today.
You will need a neutral density filter (ND). These are grey and come in various densities. They are used to reduce the light coming through the lens.
Good luck.


Maurice

[Dominique De Bast]

Thanks, Maurice for the explanation about the Weston.

Peter, obviousely a completely closed lens cannot give any picture on the print but that error doesn't explain why the rest of the film is dark (I mean the scenes shoot at other apertures. Unfortunately, there is no other way to test a camera than with a film inside and that's not cheap in our days. If that can help, in a bright sun light, I use f22 or f16 with a colour 100 asa filmstock.

[Paul Adsett]

The use of a neutral density filter, is highly recommended for today's higher speed film. The tiny aperture hole for f16 and f22 settings on 8mm cameras can lead to light diffraction which can soften the image on the film. By using an appropriate ND filter on the lens, you can open up the aperture to f8 or f11 in bright sunny conditions. I believe Shane Collins mentioned that he got far superior results with Ektachrome 100D when he started using an ND filter.

[Simon Wyss]

The Bell & Howell Filmo Eights are very good cameras. Your Sportster seems to work correctly. What might have gone wrong is that you laced the film incorrectly. Happens to many people, I have even seen a video on YT in which a lad shows how to load an 8mm camera and he has the light-sensitive layer away from the aperture. The film must leave the full spool clockwise, make a loop to turn down into the canal, make another loop, and roll onto the take-up spool clockwise again. 8mm film raw stock is delivered with the emulsion wound in. Actually, it should.

The next hurdle can be wrong processing. Reversal stock needs to be bleached, cleared, exposed to diffuse light, and developed a second time in order to produce a positive image. The positive results from the first developed negative image which we have dissolved out of the film. With a 100 ISO film in the Sportster at 16 fps you would stop the iris to f/11 to f/16 on an open landscape in sunlight.

The Eumig P 8 is a very good projector. It brings twice as much light as an ordinary apparatus due to its single-blade 90 degrees shutter revolving at triple speed. Make sure motor and mechanism have oil (red outlayed oil bores inside) and the drive belt (actually a cheap O-ring) has some tension. Clean the gate with a small bottle brush. The Eumig zoom lenses are inferior to the fixed focal length ones.