Ilford Elmo FP-C projector

[Shane C. Collins]

Boy that's a strange one really! My Elmo FP8-C projects a perfectly square image, that is sharp from edge to edge, whether it be Super or Standard 8. I still think the aperture plate is causing the issue in some way. That plate has the square opening that makes up the edges for the film on screen. Any misalignment will cause these issues upon projection. The plate can be finicky, at times, when trying to get it to re-seat in the film path.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

Not 100% sure since the S8 pic didn't show up for some reasons, but is it possible that the lateral guide is off-position? Might be just so slightly that it doesn't show up on Super8 but then noticeable on only some Regular 8?

[Gary Bolingbroke]

I was also wondering if the aperture plate is misaligned, or dirty, and letting light past where it shouldn't, but can't see how to remove it to clean it and check its seated ok. I've had the pressure plate out, cleaned debris off it, and checked it's seated ok when it's closed back against the aperture plate.
The pressure plate has leaf springs that hold it in place, but I can't see how to get at the aperture plate to check it out. How do you make lateral adjustment? The framing knob adjusts the aperture vertically, but I don't see where it is adjusted horizontally.
I'll try reposting my Super 8 image when I'm next on my pc. What I find curious, is the right hand side of the Standard 8 images appear to show a frame, but I now wonder if this is from the film rather than the projector aperture, as the profile isn't the same between those two films.

I did buy that Bolex lens you found Shane, but it needs a good cleaning before I try it out, and this original Elmo lens is good enough to use while I try to resolve this issue. You'll see how good the image can be with the Elmo lens if I can get the Super 8 image to attach ok.

[Onnie Granados]

I was also wondering if the aperture plate is misaligned, or dirty, and letting light past where it shouldn't, but can't see how to remove it to clean it and check its seated ok. I've had the pressure plate out, cleaned debris off it, and checked it's seated ok when it's closed back against the aperture plate.

Hi, Gary;

Based on your pictures and description of the issue I'm willing to bet the problem is with the aperture/matte/plate/thing, whatever its actual name. I've got a couple of these projectors which I picked up dirt cheap for a couple reasons, the primary one being the lens are shot due to severe fungus infestation, and the secondary reason being, this little aperture thing got bent. For S8mm it doesn't matter but it makes for that fuzzy edge apparent in your 8mm footage samples.

Yes, this can be fixed and yes, it's a complete pain in the tuchus -- first you remove the shiny metal plate that covers the guts that this aperture/matte is connected to, and you'll find that it's a very flat -- or should be very flat -- piece of spring steel that is fastened -- via an extremely tiny screw -- to a lever that moves up and down when you change the gears from/to 8mm/S8mm. This gate should be a perfectly flat fit against the face it slides up and down against, under just a slight bit of pressure from the "spring" of the body of the gate that you can't see until you pull everything apart. And it's really hard to get to this aperture, and it's really easy to unscrew the matte/plate/aperture and then drop it and/or the screw into the guts of the projector, and not the least bit easy to get the tiny pieces back out again. Ask me how I know this.

Anyway this thing was bent in both the projectors I have, which I still can't figure out how it got bent because you really need to go to some effort to get enough access at this thing to bend it, but bent it was. I'm thinking that if somebody (not you, way before you) was trying to clean out the projector gate, and pulled the lens and started sticking q-tips or like that into the aperture from the front side (film side) while the 8mm gate/matte was down -- that would do it. Then whoever did it goes "oops" and tries to figure out how to fix it, and then they end up selling it for cheap on ebay where I found it.

The way to diagnose if this is the issue is, can you see if that plate is absolutely flush with the surrounding surface, really flat on all edges? It it's even the tiniest bit "lifted" on any side -- which is really hard to tell unless/until you pull everything apart to get to it -- it'll give you a fuzzy edge during projection that looks exactly like what you're experiencing.

Hope this helps!

[Gary Bolingbroke]

Makes sense. I know my father didn't have this from new, and would have taken more care of it than this one has had. It is very dirty, so I wouldn't be surprised if dirt is lifting the plate, letting unintended light past, or as you say, bent, if someone has been over enthusiastic trying to clean it. I see the lever you mention move when I switch-over between Super 8 and Standard 8, and if I remove the lamp, I can see aperture in that crop you took of my photo isn't there when switched over to Super 8. I'm guessing it isn't normal to have all that crud above the aperture. I presume that's also got behind the plate lifting it, and letting light past. It might be awhile before I get the time to dismantle it and check it out, as I'm juggling a number of jobs around the house at present. So thank you all for your help. I'll let you know how I get on after I've had a look at that plate.
I'm not sure what the issue is with the Super 8 image I attached, it shows up alright on my PC, but not on my tablet when I responded to your replies last night. I'll try editing the photo's size, save it, and attach it again. Hopefully that will make a difference.
Thanks again all.

[Gary Bolingbroke]

Hi Onnie,

This is going to need a real good cleaning when I get into it.
I've just started to look into this, and judging by the shadow from the Standard 8 gate it must be bent. It isn't even close to being flush with the rear of the aperture plate.


How much did you need to dismantle to remove the aperture plate? I've made a start, and can see what you mean about it being a pain. It looks like this upper and lower rear pair of screws need removing. Will removing these be sufficient to release the plate, or will it need further dismantling? It looks like I may need to remove the pressure plate assembly to access those screws, and even then may struggle.


I shan't get any further with it tonight. So any advice you have from your experience removing the plate would be appreciated.

[Janice Glesser]

Hi Gary... Before you try removing the aperture plate. Try adjusting one or both of the lateral guides shown in the pics below. I was looking thru the parts manual (which really isn't much help as a service guide) and these guides were listed.

To access the guides and adjustment screws first remove the pressure plate and holder.


The guides can be easily adjusted by loosening the screws as indicated. I haven't tried this...but it looks like it may adjust the lateral positioning of the film in the guide path. Let us know if this helped.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

When changing between Regular <-> Super 8 the outboard lateral guide will slightly move in/out, thus the position of the film. That should help centering the sprocket hole to the claw and the optical center of the image. This might be just a tad off - enough to cause the light leak on the edge like that. Might worth take a look there (would have to access from the rear however).

Or you may try threading the film as normal, then take a look into the film gate directly (WITH THE LAMP OFF/REMOVED, OF COURSE) . You may then actually "see" what's actually wrong with that.

[Onnie Granados]

Greetings, Gary (et al);

Thanks for the close-up of the rear aperture opening or whatever Elmo calls it, you're definitely gonna wanna pull this thing apart to clean this gate no matter what, so I don't feel so bad now about guiding you through these finger-cramping steps. As soon as I posted re my advice to do this, I immediately thought, "Darn, he'll probably now want to actually do this, if he asks for pix I'm gonna have to actually pull one of these @#$#@ things apart again."

Okay as I mentioned I have two of these projectors, in one of them I removed, a long time ago, the 8mm film mask piece you'll see in these photos -- because I use that projector for telecine work and I opened up the entire film gate to get beyond full-frame transfers. So this is the gate in my stock (or close enough) Elmo FP-C, should be pretty close to your average model.

I'll start with an establishing shot to show what all this fuss is about -- this little metal gate/mask/thing that's attached to a sliding bracket with 2 really tiny screws. This is the piece we want to remove, clean, and check for alignment. Or just remove if you want to open up the film gate as much as possible.


Actually I probably should have started out with a list of tools you'll need for this job, but better late than never -- here's what I would recommend you have in your tool kit before even thinking of opening up this projector:

• Flathead and Phillips screwdrivers, "standard" size pretty much everybody has in a box somewhere. If you don't already have a set of screwdrivers, just go down to Home Depot or Harbor Freight and get a general purpose cheap set of screwdrivers, the ten-dollar set is fine, but feel to spend as much as you want.
• "Jeweler" type screwdrivers -- if you already have a nice set of $$$ jeweler screwdrivers, great, but if not, you can pick up a decent set of Husky "precision" screwdrivers at Home Depot for around ten bucks. Comes with a case so you won't lose all the pieces. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Pr...518H/303330830
• Tweezers -- generic household tweezers are fine, if you've got hi-tech anti-static super-tweezers that's fine too
• Poster putty. Might also be called "mounting putty." You can find it at anyplace that sells office supplies, Walmart has it, look in the paper/pen section.
• Plastic-safe electrical contact cleaner. You can find this at any automotive supply store (any brand, just make sure it says "plastic safe") or Home Depot https://www.homedepot.com/p/CRC-QD-1...30-6/202262505
• Foam tipped cleaning swabs -- if you don't already have a bunch of these in a box somewhere, order some right now from Amazon or eBay or check around and see if your neighborhood pharmacy stocks these. Oh, and a bottle of isopropyl alcohol (the 90% and up stuff)
• Small jar of vaseline

Okay, with that shopping list out of the way, let's open this baby up!

To even get to this thing, you'll need to remove the back cover from the projector, and remove the front hinged lamp-access cover, as well as unscrew the lamp bracket so you'll be able to get your fingers and various tools into position. Of course get a little box to put all the screws into as you do this. And use a magnetic screwdriver, it'll save you a lot of hassle trying to shake dropped screws out of the guts of the projector. This photo has been rotated for visual entertainment purposes, but in reality I've got the projector lens-barrel-side down (notice the table cloth on the right side of the frame).


With the projector rotated lens-barrel-down on your work table, you now have access to the two screws that hold the shiny metal access plate to the rear of the projector gate. You'll need to unscrew these both to remove the plate so you can get to the 8mm mask. The left/bottom side screw is flat head, the right/top side is Phillips, for reasons only Elmo knows. But use a magnetic screwdriver to extract both of these.


With the two screws removed you'll now be able to remove this metal cover plate from the rear of the shutter/gate area. But go slowly, this is a bit of tricky maneuver.


With the projector still flat on the table, use your fingers or a screwdriver to GENTLY slide this plate up and to the right (looking down from this angle) so that it begins to emerge from the rear of the projector, which is why we needed to remove the back cover earlier. You'll start with the projector on the table as you move the cover plate like this --


Now comes the tricky part -- you'll need to slide and rotate this cover plate CAREFULLY from the "front" side, as you simultaneously use your other hand to grab it from the back of the projector, as seen here (somewhat). This plate WILL come out, but it's a very close fit with all the mechanics in the way -- you may need to rotate the projector back to its upright position and GENTLY shake it so the plate moves to where you can get your fingers on it. You'll need to do this more by feel than anything else, but it will come EASILY or not at all -- if you feel something binding, do NOT push. Stop and check very carefully that you're not caught under a lever or something. Again it's a matter more of gently jockeying than anything else. Take your time. It'll come out. DON'T FORCE IT! NO TOOLS! FINGERS ONLY!


Success!! Take a break, you deserve it.


Okay, now with that mother out of the way, we can finally see our goal -- The 8mm gate plate, that flat black piece of spring steel, attached to a movable bracket by two screws. Notice it's in the "open" or Super8 position, moved out of the way so it's not "masking" the frame/gate for viewing Super 8mm film.


Here's with the 8mm gate/mask "closed," the projector in standard 8mm mode and the 8mm aperture moved up to mask the frame/gate from the back.


In principle it's very simple: The 8mm aperture/mask is a small piece of (spring?) steel, bent and cut in a very particular way, that is moved in and out of position via a connecting arm that moves when you change the sprockets from 8mm/S8mm. But due to its position and the path of the film through the gate, a lot of crud can accumulate in and around this piece over the years, especially if you don't clean your film(s) before each use. And if it gets bent and doesn't "seal" properly against the aperture, it'll cause fringing and other annoying visual distractions in the projected image.

To remove this aperture, you need to remove those little screws. Yes, it can be done, without dismantling the projector any further. Yes, it's a total pain. Proceed at your own risk, but really, it can be done. Just go slow. Slow slow SLOW!


TO BE CONTINUED because I hit the character limit for posts...

[Onnie Granados]

CONTINUED from previous post--

Removing those two tiny screws (and accompanying washers) and getting that 8mm aperture out of the projector is really more art than science, and because I've got a lot of experience getting impossible parts out of impossible locations (while simultaneously inventing entire vocabularies of profanities), I'm afraid I can't give you a greatly detailed guide on extracting these screws -- if you've ever done this kind of thing before, you know what I'm talking about -- but just go slow.

Here's a close-up of your challenge: Remove These Two Screws Without Losing Them.




Difficulty level: 9, because these little @#$#@ are brass or some other non-magnetic material. Meaning, you can't just use a magnetized jeweler's screwdriver to unscrew and extract these things in one fell swoop. So, what to do -- or at least what I do:

• I find it's marginally easier to get to these screws with the projector in S8mm mode, meaning the 8mm gate is "open" or in the down position -- this just gives you the tiniest bit more access to the left screw. It's not a huge deal but every bit helps.
• These screws unscrew counter-clockwise (standard thread). To "break" them loose (the threads can be sticky if the projector has sat for years), use the jewelers/precision screwdriver with a blade that's as wide as the diameter of the screw head -- make sure the screwdriver tip is FIRMLY in the slot, press down on the screw head and keep the screwdriver as perpendicular to the screw head as you can, go SLOW but FIRMLY counter-clockwise, JUST until you feel the screw begin to unscrew. Then STOP. You just wanted the widest blade for maximum torque to get it started. Now it should unscrew pretty easily, using a screwdriver with the blade/tip about half the diameter of the screw head. This way you're not binding the screwdriver on the edge of the shutter blade wheel (the black curved edge in the shot above). Tolerances are pretty tight, GO SLOW and now do NOT PRESS DOWN HARD on the screw -- just use a light touch, keep the blade centered on the screw head, keep unscrewing slowly.
• Tricky part is, you want to get the screw to just come out of the hole, so it "falls" onto the surrounding metal edge but does NOT fall off into the machine. If you go SLOW you'll suddenly find the screw comes out and wants to tilt one way or the other. Carefully maneuver the screw just so it does not fall UNDER the blade shutter wheel. It's just harder to get at there. Let the now-extracted screw sit there on the plate where it just came out.
• Remember the poster putty? Take a little piece of it, like the size of a BB if that big (smaller is better), and roll it into a little cylinder and stick it on the end of your smallest precision screwdriver.
• OR -- if you have a set of precision tweezers, you MAY be able to tweeze the screw out from where it's sitting. You'll figure it out pretty soon if you can get to it or not with your particular tweezers. Mine are too big, so poster putty time.
• You take your little blob of poster putty on the end of the tiny screwdriver, and VERY SLOWLY stick it against the screw, pushing straight down so the screw doesn't go rolling off into the guts of the machine, and if you've been living right, when you GENTLY life the screwdriver out, the screw is now stuck to the poster putty blob. Like this:

You'll need to do the same thing for the little brass washer that'll still be there (hopefully) after you extracted the screw. See this little washer here? It's brass, non-magnetic, so you have to use poster putty on a stick and/or tweezers to grab hold of it:


And -- voila!



Once you've got your screws and washers removed and STORED SAFELY somewhere (I like to put all the little screws and washers in my precision screwdriver box), then getting the 8mm aperture plate thing out is easy, just grab it with your fingers (if they're small) or pick up with tweezers, poster putty, whatever.

You little dickens!

Now lets look this thing over real good and make sure all of the following is true:

• Is it nice and clean and shiny?
• Is it flat where it's supposed to be flat, and bent ONLY where it's supposed to be bent?
• Basically it should look pretty much like the following --

Here are a few different angles just to compare it to however yours looks. My 8mm aperture/thing is in good working condition, so use this as your base image.


The flat parts should be PERFECTLY FLAT, and the zig-zag "bend" should be such that when the holding screws to this aperture are tightened down, the flat opening slides PERFECTLY FLAT against the larger S8mm opening. You can see it when you see it.

If your 8mm aperture is bent ... well I'd need to see a good picture of it from several different angles before I could begin to advise how to straighten it out. Yes, it can be straightened, but it's more art than science, and hopefully it's not so bent that you really need to work it over too much. Mostly I've seen these things get bent on a plane where the zig-zag bend gets "opened up" so the face of the 8mm opening isn't nice and tight against the face/plate of the projector gate, it lifts up on one side or another, and you just gently bend the aperture back to its original shape, so it "snaps" against the gate face. You just gotta keep working it until it fits.

But hopefully your aperture isn't really bent, it's just as likely to have a big ball of fuzz/lint/hair collected between the aperture and the gate and you unscrew everything and the gate is full of little hairs like this:


Here's where you take your foam tipped swabs (don't use cotton! They shed!) and your isopropyl alcohol and you clean the entire pathway until there's not a spec of dirt, lint, metal shavings, etc. from the gate inside the projector, AND clean your little 8mm gate so it's nice and smooth also. The metal of the 8mm aperture may be discolored due to heat over time, but as long as the surface is smooth, that's all that matters.

TO BE CONTINUED>>>

[Onnie Granados]

Ilford FP-C projector 8mm aperture -- final thoughts:

Advanced repair step: Here's where I like to take my spray can of plastic-safe contact cleaner and just blast the crap out of the gate of the projector, both sides, up and down, top to bottom, of course doing this OUTSIDE and using the little spray tube so you're getting the cleaner targeted to the metal facing surfaces of the gate/path. You don't want to blow all the grease out of all the plastic gears, but seriously, if you've got the projector this far apart, check out the gear lube, check the belts, see what might stand replacing as long as you're in this deep. When you blast your contact cleaner try to have the projector positioned so the cleaner drains off the metal parts onto the ground, NOT back into the projector. But if the gear grease is really sticky, I'd blast everything at this point and regrease while I'm at it. You can use your favorite custom lubrication but I find a THIN coating of plain unadulterated Vaseline works wonders. It's definitely better than whatever aged gunk was in there before, but again, you have a favorite grease, you use it.

DO NOT PUT ANY GREASE NEAR THE FRAME OPENING IN THE PROJECTOR GATE OR ON YOUR APERTURE PLATE! You want these as lube-free as possible because it'll pick up dust like a magnet. The 8mm aperture should be a grease-less fit where it slides against the larger gate opening.

Reassembly of the aperture/gate/projector is just a reverse of the above steps.

Okay okay, putting everything back together is, technically, just backwards of the above. But a couple of caveats:

• Putting the 8mm gate and getting the screws lined up so you can put things back together -- short version: Put the 8mm aperture back in place, take one tiny screw, put the washer on it, take a dab of vaseline and stick the screw and washer together, take your precision screwdriver (the half-diameter of the screw size one) and put a blob of vaseline on the end, stick the screw and washer and screwdriver together using said vaseline (not too much, just enough so things stay together) and then very carefully line everything up and start the screw slowly, when it gets started, don't tighten it all the way down but go to the other screw and washer, stick them on the screwdriver with a dab of vaseline, start the second screw, when you've got that done then tighten down both screws snug with the smaller screwdriver, with the finishing touch of the larger screwdriver. I'll try to make a short video of this but no promises.
• Keep a can of Dust-Off handy for blowing out the film gate after every showing, and when the projector is off, move the sprockets from 8mm to S8mm and back while simultaneously blasting out the gate with Dust-Off. Keep that gate clean!

Hope this helps!

[Gary Bolingbroke]

Wow, you guys are great. I didn't expect you all to go to so much trouble.

Onnie, when you referred to the shiny plate, I misunderstood, and thought you were referring to the aperture plate on the front side. I'll try Nantawat and Janice's lateral adjustment suggestion first, as that's a quick one to try, and I need to refit those leaf spring guides anyway , but from how dirty this projector is I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up going down your route of cleaning and adjusting that s8 sliding aperture to make sure it's a good clean sliding fit . That sure is a detailed description. Thank you very much.

[Gary Bolingbroke]

Onnie,
Is it just me, or did the first batch of images not come through? The images in the "continued' section are displayed ok, but also duplicated as "attached files" in the first part of the post. The images in the first part are just jpg icons with the filename appearing when you hover over them. Would you mind posting those first 12 (*matte001.jpg to *matte010.jpg) again?

[Gary Bolingbroke]

Sorry, I meant those first 10. It's been a long day.

[Onnie Granados]

Onnie,
Is it just me, or did the first batch of images not come through? The images in the "continued' section are displayed ok, but also duplicated as "attached files" in the first part of the post. The images in the first part are just jpg icons with the filename appearing when you hover over them. Would you mind posting those first 12 (*matte001.jpg to *matte010.jpg) again?

Hey, Gary;

I had a heck of confusing time uploading pix to this forum/thread -- I wanted to post the pictures "in-line" with the images, but in doing so I wasn't clear if I was supposed to upload them to a single folder first, then share from there ... or upload one at a time ... and either way I'd have images sorta "disappear" and then I uploaded them again, only to find duplicate copies in my preview window ... and then when I had to break things up into sections ... anyway I'm glad as much came through as it did!

Anyway rather than repost here I've posted all the shots I took while working on the projector, at full camera resolution, on my smugmug site, direct link is:

https://onniegranados.smugmug.com/El...aperture-gate/

You can download all the shots I took (had a heck of a time trying to hold the camera steady while also working on the projector), hope they help!