Ilford Elmo FP-C projector

[Shane C. Collins]

Hi Gary,
Just read your earlier post saying you bought the Bolex "hifi" lens. Once you get this all resolved, and install the Bolex lens you will be blown away. The Elmo lens owes nothing to a good Bolex "hifi" prime lens. Remember this is a non-zoom so you will need to set the projector back a bit further from the screen. Even a small image looks amazing! I was reading the instructions from Onnie does not look like a fun time LOL. Hopefully the instructions Janice sent you will resolve the problem your having with the Elmo.

[Gary Bolingbroke]

Hi all,

Just a quick update. I tried the lateral adjustment suggestion, which did make a difference. The Standard 8 film now appears to be more central as it runs past the aperture. Previously I had a vertical band showing on the right, and suspected there was image missing on the left. Now I can see that there is extra image projected from both sides. On the left you can see the edge of the sprocket holes in the film that weren't visible before I made the lateral adjustment, and to the right I still have the vertical band, which I now realise is image from the edge of the film. I'm sure Onnie is right, the Standard 8 aperture must be too far away from the main aperture, too much light is getting past the s8 aperture, and projecting the full width of the film, and there's also glare above and below the frame, the sliding s8 aperture clearly needs cleaning and adjusting.

The images below show what I mean about the surplus image displayed around the frame, and the glare. I thought Shane might be interested to see the difference between my original Elmo lens, and the Bolex lens, so I've taken a screen capture off my pc display, showing two photos of the film, as close to the same frame as possible for each. The left image is projected with the Elmo lens, and the right image with the Bolex. I have the projector sat on my computer desk projecting onto a white card envelope about a foot away from the lens. I had to leave a light on when I took the photo with the Elmo lens, as there was too much glare with the light off, my phone couldn't cope with it, and the photo just came out a a big white glare. It looks like the Bolex has a larger magnification than the Elmo lens, and my phone was able to cope with taking a picture with the room light off this time.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

Oops, another factor that I totally forgot.
Most if not all Dual8 projectors will have additional "aperture" for Regular8 which will drop in when switching format. That means the Regular 8 aperture will ALWAYS farther away from the focal plane than Super8 aperture - hence the blurier edge, and more chance of light spill like this.

In short - get dedicated Regular 8 to get sharply defined projected image for Regular 8 films.
Would that worth the additional investment? I have no idea.

[Shane C. Collins]

Gary the image with the Bolex lens does appear to be a lot better than the Elmo lens. How does it look to your eyes? It should be sharper and more detailed with that hifi lens. The grain seems to come alive so to speak when projecting with these prime lenses. Also I think, with certain projectors it's normal to see the edge of the sprockets when projecting a Standard 8 film. I noticed this with the Elmo FPC-8 that I own. I don't notice this when projecting Super 8. Well it really boils down to how many Standard 8 films you have versus Super 8. If your projecting more Super 8 and all looks good then maybe not worry about the Standard 8 issue. I can tell from your recent post the Standard 8 looks much better compared to when you first showed us a film. It does appear that your images aren't completely square at the edges as they should be though.

[Gary Bolingbroke]

If i'd realised at the outset that this post would turn into maintenance tutorial i'd have called it something different. Anyway, after Onnie had gone to so much trouble to document the removal of the sliding aperture, I had to have a go, and so far, so good.
It clearly needed a thorough cleaning, and I had to see if I could reduce the amount of extra light getting past the s8 aperture.
I actually found it all straightforward to dismantle, thanks to the clarity of Onnies procedure & photos, and my slim fingers

I see what he meant about the tiny brass screws and washers, it would have been so easy to lose them without using the White Tack (UK equivalent to your poster putty). I'll certainly be using the vaseline tip when I come to reassemble it.

I initially struggled to remove the aperture cover plate, until I thought to use the threading knob to rotate the disk so the cut out in it gave me a clear view of what was obstructing removal of the plate.
It was the heads of two screws that the edge of the plate needed lifting over, then it came out very easily.


Revealing a lot of dirt and shredded cine film


You can clearly see how bent the standard 8 aperture is in this view.



The s8 aperture also appears to have bits of melted film stuck to it, which wouldn't have helped either.


Cleaning and reassembly will be a job for another day. I'll let you see the results when it's all back together.
Little did I know, looking to use my fathers projector for the first time, that i'd end up having to do a deep maintenance job on it.
Thanks again everyone, I wouldn't have got this far without all your help and advice.

[Janice Glesser]

Kudos Gary for moving forward with the disassembly and hopefully getting to the heart of the problem. I noticed if that aperture, even on other projectors, is bent that the projected image edges are vignetted... soft and diffused. After removing the aperture did you just bend it to straighten it out? I've tried to bend it without removing it with no luck.

Definitely waiting to see the outcome

[Gary Bolingbroke]

Hi Janice,
Those images were taken as it came out, I've not tried to straighten it yet. It has a slight bend where the screw holes are, and this lifts it up, and away from the main aperture creating a gap. The bend is actually a little worse than it appears in the photos. Who said the camera never lies?
I dismantled it and took the photos in a spare hour I had last night, and then posted what I'd found earlier this evening. I'll keep you posted as I progress with it.

[Gary Bolingbroke]

What a difference! You were spot on Onnie.

Janice, I just carefully bent it back until bent slightly over the point where it was straight, so there's a little pressure on it pressing down on the body of the projector to ensure it stays flush with the main aperture. Cleaning it with electrical cleaner I use on pcb's didn't shift the blobs, so I used super fine wet 'n dry paper to polish it.

The standard 8 sliding aperture was bent and dirty with blobs of what I assume were melted film stuck around the aperture. With it cleaned and straightened it now slides flush with the main aperture.





Below repeat photos of the same film post-maintenance, with the Elmo lens (left) and also with the Bolex lens (right).
These photos don't do the difference between the lenses justice. In reality, the image with the Bolex is brighter and more detailed, but the Elmo lens still does a good job, and to be fair, the Bolex lens isn't pristine. Deep cleaning the Bolex will be a job for another day.


Once again, thank you everybody for your help.

[Janice Glesser]

Terrific results Gary! This is a great thread. Also thank you Onnie for jumping in and providing such excellent instructions. It's topics like this that make this forum is so valuable.

[Shane C. Collins]

Wow Gary you did an awesome job getting the Elmo back to performing the way it should be! Janice you are correct Onnie's instructions were excellent! His information was so invaluable. Gary I can see the difference between the Elmo and the Bolex lens. The Bolex wins hands down. You said the Bolex lens is dirty? When I clean a lens I use a cotton swab and some moisture from my breath. I rotate the swab in circular motions. You probably just have some embedded dirt and dust on the lens. Clean both ends really good and you should see a big improvement. The reason your image is brighter and more detailed with the Bolex prime is because there is less glass. This causes less light scatter which means a brighter image and sharper. I now use a Bolex prime on both my Bolex 18-5L Super, and Elmo FP8-C. Once you use a prime it's really hard to go back to a zoom.

[Martin Davey]

Well done on the restoration work Gary, a very satifying job! I wanted to ask about the footage you show in your thread. I noticed the 'Mallard' there and a M1 coach in 'chocolatate and cream' livery, as used by BR unoffically on the western region. I was wondering where it was taken, presumably a steam railway or a BR event?

[Gary Bolingbroke]

I compiled Onnies instructions into a Word doc, inserting suitable photos from those he linked, this was a huge help. I had that in the background on my pc, while I balanced the projector lens face down on my knees so I could manoeuvre the angle of the projector to help with getting light where I needed it to see what I was doing, as well as helping make sure I didn't lose those tiny screws & washers when reinserting them, getting those back in is the most fiddly part of the whole job. Back to decorating this weekend, but I'll see if I can post a PDF of it later, for anyone coming on too late to pick up Onnies photo link. Hopefully a file size limit won't prevent it.

Shane, the company I work for manufacture laser drilling machines for the aerospace industry, we use mirrors to direct the laser beam, and a focusing lens to concentrate the beam at the drilling point. I've seen a similar effect on the surface of those mirrors and lenses where the heat has burnt a pebble dash effect into the surfaces, I'm hoping this isn't a similar issue. So far I've only given it a wipe with spectacles cleaner on a q-tip and lens cloth, but will also try cleaning it with isopropyl alcohol or acetone.

Martin, my father took that footage, and unfortunately he passed away some years ago. I don't recall where he shot it, but will check with my brother and sister. I do recall a drive by of The Flying Scotsman near Syston on the Leicester section of the Midland mainline back in the 80's, it's possible this was from a similar run in the 70's. The same film reel is spliced with footage of the North Yorkshire Railway at Pickering, it's also possible that this was filmed at the same time. I will try to find out for you.

[Shane C. Collins]

So is the Bolex lens just dirty? The image here seems to look OK. Of course a photo of a projected image isn't going to show those fine details as when watching in person.

[Gary Bolingbroke]

Hi Shane, just stubborn dirt after all. I used my finger nail (crude I know, but soft enough not to damage the lens) to dislodge the dirt, then isopropyl alcohol to clean it. It's much better now.

Sorry Martin, None of us know where my father filmed the Mallard, but you're right about them being BR coaches.
It's a long shot, and off topic (maybe these should be in Janice's "What 8mm films did I watch last night" ), but maybe these other shots will help you identify where it might be if you're up for some detective work. I guess I can justify posting these pictures here as examples (although not great ones) of the cleaned up Bolex lens.

[Martin Davey]

Oh well never mind Gary. Thanks for trying and the extra pictures. You could always post it on You tube if you feel happy to. I'm sure there is a crowd out there ready to lap it up!