Eumig 824 -- films no longer thread

[Rob Booker]

Hello all, any help would be great. I did look through the archive and read about there being one claw or two claws for Super 8mm on the Eumig 824 when someone else had some similar issue. I think it was concluded the 824 has one claw. Please see the photo montage attached which shows just one claw on mine.

What happened was I projected some films after the projector had been unused for a few years. Projected about 4 or 5 200ft reels. Suddenly there was some jitter or loss of the flick movement (I can't remember exactly) on a favourite old cartoon I was watching, and pressing the loop or thread lever didn't help much. But a few moments later the film projected OK as far as I can recall after some jitter for a short time.

The next time I went to put a film through, probably the next day, it wouldn't thread properly and gets stuck before the gate, I retrimmed the leader several times but every time the film bunches up or gets chewed up before the film gate or doesn't progress to the take up reel. Most of the time, it doesn't get far after the threading sprocket to enter the gate and thread down to the claw in the film gate anymore.
The sprocket at the feed side turns. It doesn't seem to be faulty. It certainly reverses ok after I reverse out of the jam.

It does this on any super 8mm film I try to thread. Damaged the start of quite a few films now, embarassed to say.

I took the gate ('S' for super 8mm) out and can't see anything obvious at all. But I am no expert. I can't see any blockages.
Any ideas if it's not the claw? Film gate seems to have springiness. I have no idea what to do next, so if anyone can throw me a line, it'd be great and I can give it a try.

[Paul Adsett]

Rob, check that the top feed sprocket is not slipping on the axle. This is a common problem with Eumig 800's, caused by the top plastic sprocket holder developing a crack caused by the stress from the little grub screw. Maybe the grub screw just needs tightening, or if the plastic sprocket holder is cracked you can fix it with epoxy.
I have had to fix two of my Eumig 800's for cracked top sprocket holder, and ended up epoxying the black plastic sprocket holder directly to the shaft.

[Rob Booker]

Thank you, Paul. I will check it and get back to you if I see the problem mentioned. You could be right but I might not spot it, of course :-) Best regards, Rob

[Rob Booker]

It's just really a mystery.

No cracks in the sprocket plastic surround or spindle, the sprocket turns fine, it feeds it to just before the gate entrance, and then it just all jams or bunches up. If I manually feed the film into the gate, the claw doesn't seem that happy and even with the lever down for normal threading, once it gets past the gate, it bunches up at the lower part after the gate too or goes through the front exit if I don't put the threading lever down.

I am absolutely mystified. I just can't get it, can't work out what's happened suddenly.

[Maurice Leakey]

Rob
Are you using the correct Film Timmer. I mean the one which comes with the 824?


Maurice

[Paul Browning]

Hi rob. not too familiar with the eumig 824, but what you are experiencing sounds like at least one of the sprockets has moved, causing the distance between the take up and feed to be out. Is it possible to put a small piece of film through the gate, not fed by the top cog, this would at least show you the travel through the gate is moving correctly, that is the frame of the film is matching the gate. If this is ok, then it must been the feed or take up, and these are a positive feed, engagement of the perforations and cogs. If one cog has moved so that its half a tooth forward or backward, I would think this would cause the film to bunch up on itself, as the pitch has moved.

[Maurice Leakey]

Rob
Also, don't forget that the 824 has permanent standard 8 sprockets. For using Super 8, a new ring of teeth is slipped onto the standard 8 sprockets.
Make sure they are in their correct position.

Maurice

[Rob Booker]

Maurice, thank you. Yes, the trimmer at the front of the projector as I always have done. The sprockets are the same and the position seems correct, I removed them and put them back a few times to check and there's no sign of any problem with the transport of the film until it gets near the gate when it bunches up. The sprockets don't seem to miss a beat. I will have a closer look at the sprockets now that you mentioned it, of course. I am going to hope that somehow this is the problem because I don't think I am capable of fixing the problem Paul B mentioned.

Paul, thank you. Yes, can put the film through the gate in the way you suggest, if I feed it through myself (bit awkward but can be done). The claw doesn't sound too happy when I do that and perhaps you mean I should put it through with the motor off. There isn't any obvious blockage. If I feed it through like that with the motor on, the film bunches up and jams after the gate. So it either bunches before the gate if fed via the cog/sprocket from the initial thread inlet at the feed spool/reel, or it bunches up at the point after the gate where the film should transport to the left to go to the take up reel if I do the manual feed thing suggested. Maybe the cog has moved, as you say. Of course, I don't how these things happen. It was fine until a month or so ago and that cartoon I was watching! Suddenly something seems to have happened.

Thank you Paul A, Paul B and Maurice L and everyone else who viewed this to see if they could help and for trying to help me with this.

[Paul Adsett]

Rob, I suggest:
1) Make sure that the top sprocket is not slipping on its shaft. Do this by trying to turn the top sprocket by hand, back and fore, it should feel like the shaft is locked and should not slip at all.

2) remove the side cover and make sure there is no broken film stuck in the film path below the gate and through the sound head and up to the rear take -up reel. Make sure the film is not hitting the sides of the white nylon chute and jamming up below the rear sprocket.

[Maurice Leakey]

Rob
Two more suggestions.

1) Make sure you have a thick white threading leader attached to all your films.
2) With the motor off and the threading lever held down, try to load a film though the mech using the rear inching knob to move the film.

With 2) you can see exactly what happens at the top of the gate as the film gets near.


Maurice

[Rob Booker]

Paul and Maurice, great tips, I will give them a try today (of course, the white leader thing I already know about). Thank you :-)

[Rob Booker]

I threaded it through manually turning the knob. Once it went through ok with the white leader, once it didn't. Then after the second time it went through ok with the white leader as far as just past the gate and towards the sound head, I reversed it out and tried with the power on. Unfortunately, jammed up again at the first sprocket when I tried it with power. If the sprockets is slipping, it's far from obvious. It doesn't seem to be, but then I'm not a technician to be sure of what I am looking at. It definitely used to thread ok even without white leader, btw. It looks to me like something is out of alignment by a micron or two at the first sprocket. How that suddenly happened I've no idea. But the advice above was very useful in analysing it and helped me get this far which is further along than I was : - )

I took some photos of the film travel just after the first sprocket but it doesn't really show anything useful afaik. I suppose if it's not the alignment, it's the film is too old or the leader is? They're decades old. Perhaps I need a new film to really check this. But it was tolerating old films fine just a few weeks ago.

(When I did manually thread it successfully, it did not come out at the take up reel. When I popped the cover off near the take up real, I found jammed white leader from a previous film probably. But I don't think this is connected to why it jams up at the first sprocket.)

I will post more if I progress to a fix : - )

[Maurice Leakey]

Rob

Are you sure that the two gate assemblies have been correctly re-inserted?
They may not be in line for the film to enter after the first sprocket .



Maurice

[Russ Green]

Hi paul i have a 824 that does exactly the same thing as your describing but mine is because the claw is damaged looks like the previous owner changed the gates over without turning the red dot on the running speed adjuster to 12 o clock

[Rob Booker]

Thanks, Maurice. Yes, the assemblies seem correct, and manually it sometimes threads through if I turn the knob (but rarely if ever with power on). I have double-checked everything that I can see and am at a loss as to sort out what it is. It might be the claw as Russ above says for his one. I very much appreciate the tips, I've posted some photos below in case it's of use and in case it helps someone else. At the moment, it's beyond me to fix it, so I'm going to assume it's the claw or one of the things suggested in replies as the issue but I'm just perhaps not able to see the problem and correct it. (One of the pics is the film leader I found jammed at the take-up side, but that's not the problem with the jamming at the feed side.)