8mm at the gate; need help!

[Jacques P. Fontaine]

Hello all, my name is Jay and I am new hear but been following for some time. I am new to direct copy at the gate but here is where I am at: GL2500 dual 8, variable speed projector, converted to dimmable LED, glass defuser with "paper" on either side, no hot spots! , 16mm 2" 1.6 lens (seems to work perfect), Canon Optica Xi MiniDV camcorder w/10X manual zoom, 44X digital. At this point focus near perfect, image fills the gate. However, here is where things start going south, cannot fill view finder or software viewer, had to add 2.2X zoom adapter with "macro" attached, still not quite there (focal length issues? and present software requires either "burn directly to DVD or create VOB file). Created VOB, used "VOB2AVI", inverted and mirror image but good focus, used VirtualDUB to correct. And another issue now appears, combing and video noise. Handbrake (OBTW, handbrake corrects video size also!) takes care of deinterlace/combing effect perfectly, tried Neat Video 5 for noise but either does nothing or makes things worse! I think I have way "over processed" video at this point because results are very "dirty or grainy", lost resolution and much to dark ( To Much "Operator Error" ). Where should I start? Ayone using vdub? Any recommendations for a filter chain? Sorry so long, just frustrated at this point! Any all suggestions appreciated! Regards, Jay F. Wisconsin

[Janice Glesser]

Jacques P. Fontaine Take a deep breath and I'll start by addressing some of the issues I see with what you have described. I'm sure others will chime in too.

Canon Optura Xi Mini camcorder w/ 10x optical zoom and 44x digital zoom.

You need to set the zoom to digital. The camera will use the 10x optical zoom then kick in a little digital zoom so that the frame image will fill the sensor (view finder). In this case you should not need a zoom adapter or macro lens if using the 16mm 2" lens.

software requires either "burn directly to DVD or create VOB file

You didn't mention the name of the software you are using for capture. I do not recommend capturing to mpg2 format. There are several programs that you can use to capture realtime footage. VirtualDub 2 (http://virtualdub2.com/) does a nice job of capturing and you can install better condecs like Lagarith (lossless avi), BlackMagic (avi motion jpeg), or mp4. Sense you are capturing in SD ...there is also a program I use to use called Scenalyzer Live. It is no longer supported, but you can still download it at http://www.scenalyzer.com/

How are you connecting your camera to the computer?

another issue now appears, combing and video noise

It's best to capture in progressive mode. I'm not sure if your Optura does progressive...but if it does change it from interlaced to progressive.

VirtualDub2 can do a lot of the post processing...FPS changes, Cropping, Flipping image, Deinterlace, etc.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

Can you elaborate more detail about your camcorder? The exact model no. might help.
From Janice's specualtion your camcorder's optics might not so suitable to the task. Hope there's still a way to rectify that.

[Jacques P. Fontaine]

It is a "Canon Optura MiniDV " 11X manual zoom, 44X digital zoom "combined 220X" (?) Had it since new, works beautiful with mirrored box (you know what I mean?), just not as good as I had hoped with film gate transfer. Biggest issue is not being able to get a large enough image to fill view finder. Color, clarity and focus are great! Just tried "TV" mode at 60fps, again, great and since switching over to Scenalyzer, no "combing"! Question: maybe a dedicated "Macro" lens? The ones I have came attached to a "2.2X Telephoto adapter used to increase telephoto range of camera (mounted on front of camera's standard lens). How would the one mentioned in this forum work? Any thoughts or ideas? Regards, Jay F. Wisconsin

[Janice Glesser]

Did you set the zoom to optical like I suggested?

[Jacques P. Fontaine]

Hi Janice. Yep, has been "locked in" since I started this project. I'm still wondering if this is a "focal length"issue? Camera to close to projector lens and the image actually gets smaller, back it out to beyond 7 1/2 inches from face of projector lens and image is much larger but zooming in leads to being unable to focus properly after a certain point. Maybe I am expecting to much? After all, once I run it through Handbrake conversion ("H.264 mp4 Samsung", don't remember how I chose this setting except my "large monitor" is a Samsung 4K TV ) the image fills the screen at 4:3 aspect ratio. Maybe I need to do all edit and rendering in VirtualDUB (once I figure out a filter chain) first leaving Handbrake till final stage? Still wonder about the Macro that has been used here correcting zoom issues? Film is 50+ yrs old but in very good condition however lighting issues are huge! Indoor out door and huge differences in levels (especially considering differences between analog and digital 0-255 scales). Will try most of this over weekend. Regards, Jay

[Janice Glesser]

Jay... You need to address my comments before I can be of any assistance. Before you worry about any post processing you need to get the best capture possible.

1. Am I correct to understand that you are using the optical zoom setting...however you still can't fill the sensor? You need to adjust the 16mm lens and the camera distance. This is trial and error. You should have no trouble filling the sensor. However...If the image still doesn't fill the sensor...as long as the image is sharp...you can always crop and enlarge it in post.

2. Is it possible to post a snapshot of your setup and the image you are capturing?

3. How are you connecting your camera to the computer? You mentioned using Scenalyzer for capture... is that correct?

* I do not recommend using a zoom adapter as you have described. It will cause distortion. I recommend using the Raynox Super Macro conversion lens DCR-250. You will probably need to use a step-up lens adapter for it to fit your camcorder. If you use the macro lens you will not need the 16mm lens on the projector.

Your responses will determine where we go from here.

[Jacques P. Fontaine]

Sorry Janice, just frustrated, to many variables that I am unfamiliar with. Question 1: answer, yes. (Egg on face) forgot about adjusting projector lens! Last part of question, post processing with handbrake seems to crop perfectly so maybe image not large enough is a non-issue at this time.

Question 2; Will take pic's tomorrow.

Question3; Connection from camera to capture card is Via "S" Video cable and yes, I am now back to using Scenalyzer (turned out the capture card was defective, had a duplicate in stock, all ok now, had lost all color prior to swapping out capture card). Using older version of Pinnacle Studio AV/DV drivers with a "Calisto" 7.0 PCI capture card with breakout box and proprietary cable connecting box to PCI card.

Question 4; I have since removed zoom adapter as I found out as you have indicated, problems with distortion.

Thanks for your input and patience !

Regards,
Jay F. Wisconsin

[Janice Glesser]

Connection from camera to capture card is Via "S" Video cable

Why S-video and not Firewire? Doesn't your camera and capture card use Firewire?

[Jacques P. Fontaine]

Ill have to look into the Firewire option but I have been led to believe that it can only be used to transfer a file once it has been captured on MiniDV tape? (not a pass through option like I am presently doing but thank you), I will dig deeper into that!

[Janice Glesser]

I looked up the Optura Xi camera specs which don't show a firewire interface... so looks like S-video is your best choice.

*** Sorry Jay... I didn't mean to make things more confusing. I want to make a correction to a couple responses above (I can't go back and correct them now) ... .. I should have said try the Digital zoom...not the optical. This digital zoom will bump the zoom up just a little to fill the viewfinder without causing any negative digital artifacts.

[Jacques P. Fontaine]

Hi Janice; here are pic's of setup on dinning room table (sorry 'bout mess, nothing is permanent yet, wife wants her table back! ) There are 5 total, should be self explanitory; 3 of basic setup, 1 of dimmer system I have Velcro'ed to the back cover and the last is my "studio", just trying to figure out where to put everything (I'm a digital artist/fine art photographer) once completed!

[Janice Glesser]

Thanks for the photos. I see from the viewfinder that the image of the gate is way too small. There is definitely something wrong. Even without digital zoom you should be able to zoom in and almost fill the sensor. I see that you still have the close-up lens adapter on the camera. Remove the adapter and set your zoom to digital. Move the camera... adjust the 16mm lens... and use the zoom until you fill the viewfinder screen. This will have to be tweaked again once you have film in the projector.

Also try using the 16x9 format and just center the image in the viewfinder...see if that helps. Doesn't hurt to try

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

My setup is much like yours and Janice's. The camcorder is Sony TRV950 which have 12x optical zoom. The projector's lens is also 50mm(2") lens.

And I don't even have to zoom all the way in to get it full-frame. Feels like it's only 3/4 of the range or so (which means only 8-10x) to fill it.

So there's something obviously wrong here.

And are you certain that your camcorder DOSE NOT have Firewire connection? Most miniDV camcorder I've eccountered does have that.

I just had a new scan job came in. Will do the setup tonight (that translates to Monday morning in your time). Will share the pic of my setup to this post too.

[Jacques P. Fontaine]

Well---got so frustrated that to clear my head I went back to ground "0", 82B filter and std. projector lens but set digital zoom to "MAX" (strange settings, 11 =44x and max digital zoom is 220x in menu?). I now can get full frame, almost. No matter what I do I cannot see square edges of film gate like I could with the 16mm lens and that is why I picked it up, its like looking through a porthole on a ship! Even when I zoom out, gate corners are not detected, everything is round. When I zoom in the image gets larger but the porthole doesn't . The best way I can explain it is like looking through a pipe at some one and as they walk towards you they get bigger but you see less of them because the pipe remains the same size? I wonder if the photographer was using some sort of very high intensity lighting and this is some sort of strange vignetting caused by the lighting? However, this did not happen with the 16mm lens? Again, clear, sharp image, just corners not visible. Maybe aspect ratio issues as 8mm is a little wider than 4:3? You said try 16:9 and then crop in post is that why?