Standard 8mm projector to Canon EOS 5D video capture

[Marcel Friedman]

I'm a complete newbie wanting to capture Standard 8mm footage from a projector with a Canon EOS 5D Mk II camera in video mode.

The following link encouraged me - https://vimeo.com/20950590 (the written description is a better introduction than the video). However, using the back element of a 35mm lens as a field flattener for the projection lens struck me as way too uncertain, albeit the captured videos seem rather good.

On reflection, it occurred to me that, aside from susbstituting the projector lamp with an LED and possibly enlarging the film gate slightly, it would only be neccessary to point my camera, equipped with bellows and a suitable Zeiss Luminar macro lens, at that very gate.

But, on reading other posts here, I became aware of the issues of flicker and video frame rates. I live in the UK, where our mains supply is 50 Hz, our TV is PAL and my projector is a Sankyo Dualux 1000.

I should be extremely grateful for any advice as to what to be aware of, particularly regarding projector speed, video frame rates and anything else that might be relevant.

Also, I have been stunned by the quality of pictures from some exotic DIY frame by frame recordings, although the complexity of these set-ups is quite beyond me. Could the quality of video I obtain possibly equal these?

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

Been there, done that. And I also live in PAL land.

Your Sankyo probably does have 3 blade shutter. In theory set your projector's speed at 16.67fps, then set your camera at 50p mode with 1/50 shutter speed. This will give you best possible for real time capture - virtually flicker free at least.

In practice it would be other way round - set your camera first then adjust your projector's speed until least flicker detected. Depending on camera used you might still get some barely noticeable flicker/horizontal banding, or completely flicker-free.

[Marcel Friedman]

Very many thanks for that Nantawat, it's greatly appreciated. I'll certainly be trying the practical route you give.

Anyone else?

[Andrew Davis]

Hi, this is my first post on here. I have been trying to do the same as you with similar equipment.

I have a Sankyo Dualux 2000H projector and an EOS M camera. I'm not sure what are the differences between the 1000 and the 2000 but they look similar. (Maybe the bulb is different?) My EOS M is not such a high-end camera as yours but I think the basics are much the same as far as film transfer is concerned.

With regard to the problem of the rolling black band, the Sankyo is ideal because it has a fine adjust for the speed. If there's a band rolling up or down, I just slightly increase or decrease the speed until the band disappears.

I've found that the shutter speed on the camera is not critical for this; at different shutter speeds, the banding comes in at different projector speeds but still goes away with a tweak of the fine adjust.

The speed on my projector drifts off a bit as the film runs through so I have to sit by it and tweak it from to time if the rolling comes back.

I changed the projector bulb for an LED. I found a new type LED bulb which is exactly the same size as the original halogen and fits in the projector without any modification at all. However, the electrical connection is different. I didn't want to make any changes to the projector so I got a separate little power supply, a dimmer unit and a new connector to go on the bulb. I got all the bits on Amazon. I could give you the exact details if you are interested.

I think the change to LED is well worth doing. The light output is much easier to work with and of course there is no heat. So you can stop on a single frame with the bulb on, to adjust the focus etc. without melting the film.

As for the optical side, getting the picure from the projector into the camera, this is still a work in progress for me. I don't have a macro lens. I tried various lenses on the EOS M, using extension tubes and/or reversing the lens but I couldn't fill the frame.

In the end, I found the only thing that worked using what I currently have was to project the film directly onto the camera sensor, without any lens on the camera at all. I did this by pulling the projector lens slightly forward compared with where it is supposed to sit in the projector body. That gives a picture about the size of a postage stamp a couple of inches in front of the projector. You can see this if you put a piece of paper in front of the projector while you move the lens in and out. So I put the camera on a tripod in that position and, hey presto, the picture appears on the camera and fills the frame.

I put a UV filter on the front of the camera (using a lens reverser adapter ring) just to keep the dust out.

I would say the result is better than my earlier attempts to film “off the wall”. In particular, the contrast is better and the colours are much brighter.

With regard to sharpness, I think the focus is good. I can see what I think is the film grain. But the picture itself still looks soft. So far I have only tried this method with some standard 8mm film from the late fifties; maybe that is how it came out of the original cine camera. Or maybe a limitation of using the projector lens in a way it wasn't designed for?

The big problem that I have, however, is when the film shot pans from one side to the other. I'm not sure how to describe it, not exactly flickering but a sort of jerkiness. I cannot get round this no matter what combination of projector speed, shutter speed, frame rate etc. that I use. The faster the pan, the worse it is.

I've looked at the individual frames of test samples on my computer monitor. For every four or five frames, there's a perfectly good picture, then the next frame has a sort of double vision effect, then the next four or five are good, and so on. The end result when viewed at normal speed is horrible!

If anyone can suggest how to smooth this out, I would be very grateful.

I would also be very interested to know how you get on with using a macro lens. Also, whether you have the same problem with pan shots.

Sorry for such a long post at my first attempt.

[John Yapp]

This may help. A more basic approach, but the principles are sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiOiuGFEzSU

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

The big problem that I have, however, is when the film shot pans from one side to the other. I'm not sure how to describe it, not exactly flickering but a sort of jerkiness. I cannot get round this no matter what combination of projector speed, shutter speed, frame rate etc. that I use. The faster the pan, the worse it is.

I've looked at the individual frames of test samples on my computer monitor. For every four or five frames, there's a perfectly good picture, then the next frame has a sort of double vision effect, then the next four or five are good, and so on. The end result when viewed at normal speed is horrible!

If anyone can suggest how to smooth this out, I would be very grateful.

That's probably the nature of real-time "Telecine" approach. Unless you have some sort of hardware synchronization between the projector and camera, that's inevitable. There will be ALWAYS some sort of frame blending like that no matter what.

Other method is to do frame-by-frame scan to get exact copy each of the original film frame, but that's another thing (with TONS of complication for most newbies).

[Andrew Davis]

Thank you for that, Nantawat, on my problem with panning shots, I was rather afraid that might be the case. I think I may have got as far as I can go down the real-time route.

Just out of curiosity, I might take a few seconds of test sample and try and edit out the offending frames and see what that looks like. I have some video editing software that lets me delete an individual frame, one at a time. If around one frame in five needs to be taken out, a 10 second clip at 25 frames per second would only (!) need about 50 edits. Not a practical solution, I know, but I am in Covid 19 lockdown at the moment so what better way to pass the time!

More practically, I would indeed like to try the frame-by-frame scan approach. I have a Raspberry Pi mini computer and have seen some interesting projects based on that to convert an old projector. I don't under-estimate the difficulties but I am tempted to get a Pi camera and a stepper motor and give it a go. (I won't wreck my nice Sankyo, I have another old projector that I could use.)

[Andrew Davis]

I meant to say also that I looked at John Yapp's approach. I would be interested to know how do panning shots look using that?

[John Yapp]

They aren't too bad Andrew but as Nantawat said, there will always be some frame blending. If you haven't already, Google "Videofred" for the best chance of removing this using an Avisynth script called "NoDups". Results of my technique here if you're interested. https://youtu.be/dtxjq_Jz36E It's a long way from perfect and I'd love to know how it compares to the Wolverine transfer machines but won't Jump all over your thread. Be sure to show us your results.

[Marcel Friedman]

Andrew - I'm pretty sure your camera will be up to the task. I'm particularly fortunate in having a set of Luminar macro lenses, but one of the leading exponents of frame by frame video capture, Frank Vine http://www.cine2digits.co.uk/, uses only an enlarger lens. It's a Schneider Componon-S, reverse mounted, i.e. with the "bottom" of the lens facing his camera at a greater distance than the "top" of the lens, facing the projector gate. This mimics how it is used in an enlarger, with film relatively close and paper further away. This seems a more rational set-up than using a projector lens, computed to work similarly to the enlarger lens except with a much greater conjugate distance on the screen side. However, this hasn't stopped either James Miller, of the vimeo clip I mention, or John Yapp from achieving remarkably good results.

Yes please, the Amazon details would be most welcome, but I'm afraid that posting any kind of results will take some time, since I'm very much in the early stages of research. It was, in fact, only the recent acquisition of the Canon camera that turned my thoughts to videoing the family films.

John - I thought I might have wandered by mistake onto James' video, but slowly realised that it was your use of the Cinema Paradiso sound track that created this impression. Your results look remarkably good, particularly so in view of the simplicity of the set-up. You seem very lucky to have come across a 16mm projection lens to fit into an 8mm focussing mount. Most I've come across won't.

As well as the frame by frame transfers I mentioned being stunning, it's also worth noting that the original film material tends to be well exposed and framed. They also gain by "wet gate" treatment and extensive post production attention, both of which are available to real time transfers. In view of the less than perfect nature of the family films, real time transfer with post tweaking looks to be the way I shall go, jumpy panning shots notwithstanding!

[Andrew Davis]

John – I'm very impressed by your video. Much smoother pan than mine. I'll give it another go. However, I note your system requires a toilet roll. You can't get those for love nor money nowadays!

Do you do the actual recording in the video camera or in the computer?

Also, thanks for the links to Videofred. Very interesting. A bit beyond me, I fear (although I have used Virtualdub for some stabilisation).

Re the LED bulb conversion, I offered to let Marcel Friedman know what I used. It was an Osram LED Superstar. However, to connect that, I had to change the electrical connector socket because the original didn't fit. I notice from your video that you seem to be using the original connector, which would be simpler. Is that the case? If so, what bulb are you using? That might be a better recommendation rather than the details of mine.

[Andrew Davis]

And Marcel - thanks for the information about the enlarger lens. I think I have seen something on that subject before but I can never work out exactly how the lens is fitted to the projector and/or camera.

[John Yapp]

Andrew, There are alternatives to the toilet roll method luckily. All that is required is some means of holding the lens in the projector. Regarding the recording, my method is to take a feed from the camcorder directly into the video editor's capture software so in essence the signal is just being passed through the camcorder. (I use corel videostudio) though I see no reason why the recording couldn't be made directly on the camcorder except it is one more link in the chain I suppose. The eumig projectors use a GZ6.35 lampholder. I have found that by manipulating the pins a little, a standard M11 bulb can just about be persuaded to fit and are readily available. Alternatively, a 20w halogen bulb will do the job. I tend to use the Led bulb for much the same reasons that you listed.

[Janice Glesser]

I use John Yapp's method all the time with my Moviestuff Frame-by-Frame Workprint XP. It works great!

FRAME-BY-FRAME CAPTURE - DIRECT TO GATE

REALTIME CAPTURE - MIRROR & GROUND GLASS
In the past I have used a mirror and ground glass unit to do realtime telecine with very good results. It's fast and easy to setup. Look for the Sima CopyKit on Ebay. It has a single surface mirror which is necessary.




REALTIME CAPTURE - DIRECT TO GATE
Just for fun I did a very quick capture direct to gate setup with my Sankyo 2000H using John Yapps 16mm lens method. The 2000H is easier to setup the LED bulb than the Sankyo 1000 because the 2000H is 12v where the 1000 is 8v. I had a 2 pin 12v LED (20w equivalent) in my spare parts box which I just used to replace the 100w halogen bulb. I inserted a piece of paper as John suggested and used a Keystone 16mm lens from one of my projectors. This is the same lens I use on my Moviestuff Workprinter XP projector. I used a piece of rubber shelf liner to wrap around the lens to hold it in place (toilet paper rolls are scarce right now)

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

My camcorder/projector setup is principally identical to Janice's. And I can solidly confirm that this DEFINITELY WORKS, and the result will be extremely good if done right. May post a pic of my setup tonight to verify that.