8mm Forum: A Scratch - Elmo Film Guide Wear (Correct?)

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Topic: A Scratch - Elmo Film Guide Wear (Correct?)

Peter Harrison
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Chiba, Japan
Registered: Mar 2016

posted September 19, 2016 03:37 AM

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Hello everyone,

So I know this is a topic brought up and discussed in other posts but I thought raising my question here with the aid of a picture might help me, as well as others seeking to diagnose Elmo scratches in the future.

So I noticed last night on screening a print of Beauty and the Beast that what I at first thought was a small piece of hair between the film and the lens is actually a scratch on the print [Frown]

[Frown]

As I'm using an Elmo ST-600 and am aware that the film guide is often an issue I dismantled it this morning. The most obvious oddity in looking the three pieces over is as follows:

As you can see there is a pretty deep (relatively speaking) gouge in the nylon where the edge of the film has been running against the side (this is also evident slightly on the other side). In addition, where this gouge ends on the right of the image the film seems to have worn the upper portion of the "gutter" slightly (where the arrow points).

Would you guys say that this might likely explain the scratching to my print that is occurring in the bottom left portion of the projected image? I'll attempt to post an image of the scratch on the film once it turns dark here.

Looking at the position of the added roller on the customized part available through Van-Eck Vid Services http://shop.van-eck.net/PP-0095.html I'm assuming I will need to replace it, but before splashing the cash I thought I'd ask if this wear is extreme enough (and the damage consistent with the fault) to be responsible.

Any feedback much appreciated!

Peter

P.S. In the mean time I guess I'll switch to my Eumig Mark S 810D. Which while also broken at the moment may be more readily fixable [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011

posted September 19, 2016 06:55 AM

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Yes Peter, this is one area on the Elmo, the new guide has roller here to stop this happening. This area is just under the first top sprocket which turns through quite a sharp right angle, and this is the wear you see. Also look at the lower loop former, this also can wear flat coursing the same problem. All fixable now.

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Peter Harrison
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Chiba, Japan
Registered: Mar 2016

posted September 19, 2016 07:41 AM

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Ah, I thought as much.

What is slightly irksome, though many would likely say "to be expected when you pay so little for a projector", is that this single replacement piece will cost me more than I paid for the projector itself (not including postage). They go pretty cheap on Yahoo auctions here in Japan, you see.

It leaves me wondering whether I might be better off just throwing my time and money into repairing my dual gauge Eumig and taking a punt on another Elmo that will grant me larger reel capacity and potentially have guides in better condition.

It's a shame as this Elmo was my first projector in what is still for me a very young hobby. I'm otherwise very happy with it but perhaps it might better serve me as a spares machine (minus the film guide, obviously) or something just to tinker with.

Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud I suppose.

Thanks Paul!

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted September 19, 2016 10:21 AM

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Peter, whilst I agree with others' replies, I am perplexed when you say bottom left side of the image: a scratch caused by the part you pictured, should consist of a permanent, endless line on the whole height of the frame not just the bottom. If the scratch is not as high as the whole frame, then it must be caused by something that gets in touch with the film intermittently, maybe before or after the film gate... [Confused]

[Confused]

--------------------
Maurizio

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Alexander Vandeputte
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 243
From: Belgium
Registered: Nov 2009

posted September 19, 2016 05:10 PM

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Maurizio is right. A scratch like that occurs somewhere between the upper or the lower loop. Usually it's one of the loops being a fraction too large or too small.
If you buy another Elmo with less wear on the guides, please bear in mind that those original guides wear pretty fast...
As we sometimes pay hundreds of dollars for rare, elusive prints, please don't be cheap on projectors or new replacement parts, as print damage is always irreversible...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 19, 2016 05:40 PM

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Cracking advice there Alexander! [Wink]

[Wink]

It's amazing how many decent films you see and read about here and elsewhere that have been completely ruined forever by faulty or crude film handling machines.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steven J Kirk
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From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008

posted September 19, 2016 06:28 PM

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I think the metal guide from Wittner or from FFR is the answer to this and fits the GS 1200 as well if one upgrades from the ST600. I did exactly this moving my two metal guides from my two ST600s to my two GS machines.

--------------------
VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Peter Harrison
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Chiba, Japan
Registered: Mar 2016

posted September 19, 2016 08:03 PM

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Thank you all for your replies.

I'll try and get a photo of the scratch to better illustrate the damage and perhaps find the correct cause. After dark taking care of my baby daughter occupies a lot of our time and due to living in a pretty tiny apartment running a projector once she's asleep can get me royally told off by the wife.

Thank you also for your input regarding giving the prints the projector they deserve. My hesitation is not necessarily in buying a new and less wear-prone part for an Elmo, but more for an Elmo that takes an identical maximum reel size to the Eumig I also currently own. I'm certainly not going to be risking prints on the Elmo-600 with the guides in their current state. I am considering taking a punt on a ST-1200 with dual track that would allow me to get at the English on my Spanish/English print of Aladdin. Should I do so, it will be a matter of taking a good look at the state of the guides at that point I think.

Cheers!

Peter

[ September 19, 2016, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Peter Harrison ]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 20, 2016 04:36 AM

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A print as prestigious as a stereo Derann Aladdin feature film should only be placed through a tried and trusted mechanism in my opinion.

Any Elmo and other machines now carry the risk of worn nylon guides therefore it is for you to decide Peter, where those risks can be minimized by either purchasing a model which is renowned above all else for its kind film handling qualities or otherwise, if you do purchase an Elmo long play model, factor in a percentage of cost for the new upgraded nylon guide parts from Edwin as a minimum precaution.

It is the films themselves nowadays that have to be given the most consideration and respect.
They will never come around again and potentially, the best low fade prints have many many years of life left in them, but only if preserved well.

A decent machine in top order will allow you to enjoy these type of films hundreds and hundreds of times.
A bad machine in poor condition would most likely give you only a handful of opportunities at best.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
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From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011

posted September 20, 2016 06:53 AM

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What machine do you suggest Andrew ? ,does it begin with "B " and end in er ?.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted September 20, 2016 07:09 AM

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I would suggest any good make that is tried and tested but above all else, kept up to scratch,(no punn intended) [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

[Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 20, 2016 07:10 AM

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Any mate so long as they are tried and tested.

All my own personal favourites just so happen to originate from Europe as you are acutely aware Paul, but each to their own so long as they have maximum trust in their machine.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
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From: West Midlands United Kingdom
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posted September 20, 2016 12:29 PM

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Perhaps you could get a GS from van Eck, would that qualify ?.

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted September 20, 2016 12:45 PM

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Peter,
I also love bauer 500/600 series,never had any issues with damage since using them.

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Paul Browning
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posted September 20, 2016 01:30 PM

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HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 20, 2016 01:31 PM

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You never will have David until the cam or follower or both wears out.

Once it won't frame correctly, time to inspect and adjust / lubricate or change those mentioned parts to continue to avoid any scratch risks.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Jason Smith
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: Tohoku, Japan
Registered: Oct 2015

posted September 20, 2016 04:29 PM

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Besides repairing or replacing the the nylon guide before the upper sprocket of the Elmo, you should also check the lower film tensioner. I"m not sure if you have it on your machine but its a black plastic bar that lowers onto the film before the lower sprocket engages the film.

When the lower film tensioner is working properly, it should only touch the film along the edges of the sprocket area. After thirty or more years of wear on that plastic part, the image area of your film could eventually rub against this plastic part.

One quick fix is reshaping the piece with a soldering iron or you could replace the lower film tensioner with some type of homemade roller.

The Elmo ST-1200 HD's lower film tensioner has a good design and is what should have been used in their GS and ST series machines.

As far as the wear on that nylon guide, there are ways you can repair the guide. One is using a metal file to reshape parts of the guide or cutting a hole in the bottom of the guide to add a roller.

If you didn't want to repair it on your own, you could look at purchasing a replacement from van Eck or metal guide from Wittner. I have the metal guide from Wittner and like it, but it's too expensive considering it's just a guide.

In the area you live in Peter, there might be a former Elmo repair specialist that could help bring your Elmo machine back to peak performance. Retro 8, which is located near Tokyo Sky Tree, offers projector repair. http://www.retro8.com/service/mente.html
I would call them up and ask how good their projector technician, Mr. Shigeru Aoki, is with Elmo projector repair.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 20, 2016 05:23 PM

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Most effective and decent spare parts are all expensive sadly Jason.
However, the point made earlier by Alexander is a highly valid point among all of this.
If you are to invest thousands in irreplaceable film prints, isn't it better to simply surround yourself with peace of mind by investing some money into the machines themselves?

They are all a minimum of 25-30 years old now in almost all cases. The fact WE CAN reinvest in these machines to give them a whole new lease of life now, by having the kind of vital spare parts like Edwin and Daniel provide, can surely only be a good thing over the long term to allow anyone who is willing to invest in these spares, an opportunity to enjoy these films for another 25-30 years minimum.

What is too expensive if it gives you this level of service and peace of mind?

In my case for machines I simply could never have afforded when new any of them.

All in all, I have still saved an absolute fortune for the same product by purchasing it 25 years later and then buying all the spare parts I am ever likely to ever need for it versus what I'd have spent buying it from new.

[ September 20, 2016, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Peter Harrison
Film Handler

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From: Chiba, Japan
Registered: Mar 2016

posted September 20, 2016 08:42 PM

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Hi Jason,

I've been in to Retro8 a couple of times and have had some processing and scanning of Super 8 I've filmed myself done by them. I've found them very nice people to deal with but as for repair I have not used them. I'll look into it.

Have you yourself used them for projector repair at all? According to their website they sell a GS-1200 for approximately $2400 (241500yen) and a Xenon with an f1.1 lens for around $7000 (735000yen) so they may be a tad out of my price range.

To be honest though I do rather enjoy repairing things myself and I anticipate watching a print on a projector I've returned to working condition myself to be all the sweeter as an experience. I've learned an important lesson in thoroughly and regularly testing the mechanism before running a coveted print through such a machine, however.

I've received the parts necessary to complete the repair of my Eumig Mark S 810D today so for now at least I'm going to turn my attention to that and put the Elmo in the timeout corner of the room with its film guides removed as punishment (though in fairness I'm the guilty party).　I'll also keep my eyes peeled for a Bauer that might be in my price range.

Cheers all,

Peter

P.S. Planning on screening Modern Times on regular 8mm this evening should the Eumig repair go as planned and will switch the sprockets and plates in order to capture an image of the Beauty and the Beast damage if we do get around to it.

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Jason Smith
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: Tohoku, Japan
Registered: Oct 2015

posted September 20, 2016 11:07 PM

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Peter,

I've been servicing my Elmo's on my own but I would like to find someone here in Japan who has extensive experience working on them.

I've stumbled across a few projector repair shops that have an online presence in Japan but wonder if there are any that were Elmo authorized service centers. I'm going to see if I can find one.

I have never utilized Retro 8's repair services but I have a feeling that might be a good place to start. For the price that Retro charges for a used GS-1200 that I'm assuming they refurbished, I have a feeling their repair services may be a little too expensive. It wouldn't hurt to ask though.

There's a projector repair specialist that I know in my area but he's in his eighties and mostly repairs 16mm machines.

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Paul Browning
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From: West Midlands United Kingdom
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posted September 21, 2016 04:06 AM

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Peter, I think if you are experiencing problems finding a suitable repairer in Japan to fix an Elmo its native home after all, do you not think it would be even more difficult to find some one to repair a bauer?, perhaps you should speak to Tom about his experience with the bauer he bought before you venture into the unknown, rather the devil you know ?.

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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posted September 21, 2016 06:36 AM

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Paul,
I seem to have amused you.

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Paul Browning
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posted September 21, 2016 06:51 AM

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No David, its just that when we get this kind of problem on the forum with an Elmo machine, the Elmo verse's every other machine on planet seems to take place, its just a matter of who mentions it first, nothing personal David I can assure you. They both fine machines, but just like dogs, the bad one's come back to bite you on the butt.

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Adrian Winchester
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posted September 21, 2016 08:38 AM

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Although I'd opt for the Van Eck option in relation to a GS, I've renovated worn guides on a couple of more basic Elmos. It probably helps if you have reasonably good craft skills. The technique, which another collector suggested to me many years ago, involves use of a small amount of a hard-setting glue such as Araldite. Using something like a cocktail stick while the mixed glue is still pliable, you carefully fill any gaps and remake any ridge that elevates the edge of the film slightly. Some precision is needed but in my experience such repairs can work well. The Araldite is probably more durable than the original plastic.

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
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posted September 21, 2016 10:56 AM

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Paul,
thanks for reply,now you've explained your point,its fair comment.

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