8mm Forum: Elmo ST 1200 HD M Belts

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Topic: Elmo ST 1200 HD M Belts

Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 05, 2015 07:22 PM

That would be terrific Andrew. Some guidance would not only help me but lots of other too I'm sure. Other than Steve I don't see anybody but yourself jumping to the chance to offer their expertise with this machine. So when ever you get a chance to document the procedure...I'm patient...I'll wait [Smile]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 05, 2015 07:49 PM

Janice, I will always do my bit to help anyone out with this wonderful hobby of ours with any aspect I can be of assistance of, sometimes to the extent of the absolute hatred demonstrated by others, but thankfully to the extreme gratitude expressed by other people.

I am in a bit of a tip at the moment with doing a little bit of much needed decorating to our lounge, but somewhere in my five days off now I will come to your assistance. This sort of stuff I do for my fun and wind down, much to the extreme annoyance of my lovely, totally uninterested in film, yet unbelievably understanding wife, God bless her!! ha ha [Smile]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

posted June 08, 2015 09:55 PM

Typically the shutter band is removed and not replaced, it is not entirely necessary however it does provide additional surface friction to help turn the shutter and reduces a little noise but not much. Provided the machine is in good working order and lubricated nicely the shutter band is not necessary. Only if the motor is old/weak have I found the shutter band to make a difference.

Friendly advice, remove the shutter before trying to remove / replace the band !

Also, be very careful not to gouge or nick the shutter with that x-acto blade as that will eventually chew up the rubber drive wheel(s) and likely make some hideous cyclic noises ... akin to a nail in a tire.

Removing the shutter means some pretty serious disassembling & reassembling, ( worst of which is reassembling the solenoid for the auto-thread )

I would not suggest a novice try to remove the shutter/camtank without some help, since it is not trivial and also involves re-timing the shutter, but it sounds like you are very mechanically inclined.

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 09, 2015 12:14 AM

Thanks for your feedback Roy. As I wrote in a previous post...I have already removed the old belt so no going back now. I'm just waiting for delivery of the new belts. Steve has made some nice progress without really removing much...but it wasn't a cakewalk. Maybe you are right and this is not a DIY project, but I'm willing to listen to others experiences if they have any suggestions.

QUESTION: Since I'm not familiar with the projector this maybe a dumb question...but I don't see the large rubber wheels touching the shutter at all. Even when I turn the main switch to Forward... nothing is touching the wheel. Is this because there are no belts on it right now?

I'll put on all the new belts and see how it runs before addressing the shutter belt. Learning more about the projector will help me understand what are my options. [Smile]

[ June 11, 2015, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 09, 2015 03:08 AM

Janice this is where clutch adjustment would be made if you were leaving the shutter belt off. If you are putting another shutter belt on it then wait and see how the clutch performs with the new belt.

Too little adjustment and the clutch wont have enough friction beteewn the drive wheel and shutter wheel to drive it correctly.

Too much adjustment and on switch posiion 1 the machine will turn over instead of just the fan turning. In other words you lose the still frame facility.

Let me know Janice if you still intend to fully remove the shutter shaft after Roy's advice earlier. You may decide not to bother if you feel it may do more harm than good.

I don't mind doing the timing work but not everyone is comfortable with this aspect of the job. Also on the Elmo's a lot of the factory fitted screws tend to be really tightened to excess and many can easily be rounded. You do have to take extreme care when first trying to undo some assemblies as you really do only get one chance with them before a Dremmel is the only answer!

Therefore take care at every step if you do decide to remove it Janice.

[ June 09, 2015, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005

posted June 10, 2015 09:26 AM

Andrew, How do you carry out this clutch adjustment?

I had an ST-1200 recently which was showing that symptom of too much adjustment.

I.E. In the 1st clik position, it drove the whole machine and not just the fan. In reverse it was OK with the fan only working at 1st clik. I couldn't see where the adjustment was so I had to leave it as it was but I knew it wasn't right.So would like to know how its adjusted.

frankarnstein [Confused]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 10, 2015 09:55 AM

Hello again Frank, when you completely remove the clutch arrangement there is straight cam track at right angles to the tilting clutch mechanism.

The most forward protruding point on the clutch is a pointed tip with a flat surface beneath it.

The amount of forward movement or tilt on the clutch arrangement and therefore friction is determined by where the stationary cam track is set along its adjustable elongated slots and where this strikes the protruding tip.

To understand fully Frank What I am saying to you,you need to refer to page 10 of the ST1200 service manual. This is available as a free download from both forum and other places on the web.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005

posted June 11, 2015 06:08 AM

Thanks for that concise explanation Andrew, it helped me a lot.

I will check out the manual as you suggest and then practice adjusting on a wrecked machine from the boneyard here.

For Elmo ST-1200 owners this is an important adjustment to know about and so you were right in bringing it to the attention of Janice.
My personal feeling is that its best to remove these flat belts whenever they are encountered as they usually soon melt then go soft and lumpy. The drive wheels will then rumble, slip and vibrate as the surface is no longer flat and smooth. Its a terrible sound to hear.

With the flywheel removed and using a blade with patience and care, it's possible to take off the remnants of the old belt without doing damage to the edge of the shutterwheel. Then run it driving direct on the metal edge.
If you have any slip occuring, tighten the extension spring that pulls the wheels against the shuttershaft and that should fix it.

Janice, I wouldn't be going to the trouble and risk of removing the shutterwheel just to install a belt around it when you don't really need it.

dogtor frankarnstein [Razz]

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted June 11, 2015 06:40 AM

You will be surprised at how the belts do stretch when removing and fitting. Don't forget with the exterior rubber removed there may,(most people don't notice it)a slight difference in FPS speed, this in my case was remedied when I had a modified sized lower pulley made.

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 18, 2015 01:51 AM

I've decided to go with Dogtor Frank's suggestion. Except for the shutter wheel belt, I have installed all the other belts, including the counter belt. The shutter wheel without the belt doesn't sound noisy to me. It seems to run fine. When cold the motor on this projector has a delay in starting, but once started it comes up to speed in a minute or so. Sound films sound normal... I think it must be running pretty close to 24fps. I'm not experiencing any slippage so I haven't made any adjustments to the clutch.

This projector was in poor shape when I got it, but with a good cleaning, lubing, and new belts... it's running nicely now. I've learned so much from all the feedback here. I still may add the shutter belt down the road, but for now it's good. [Smile]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 18, 2015 03:50 AM

Probably not too much to be gained Janice for all the work involved,especially if you were removing the shutter wheel just solely for this purpose. Hence the reason I sent you the question.

It's one of them to me where if it already has the belt on and its fine...then leave it on.

If it's already been removed by somebody and its running fine ...then leave it that way I'd say.

It doesn't make a huge difference either way, just dampens the noise slightly and gives it slightly better traction when all is like new, but many prefer this belt removed altogether.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005

posted June 18, 2015 05:57 AM

Hi Janice,...

Well done on getting your Elmo ST1200 going well again.

You mentioned.............

" When cold the motor on this projector has a delay in starting, but once started it comes up to speed in a minute or so. "

Curiously enough Janice, my Elmo ST 1200D is doing exactly the same thing and I don't like it very much.
When cold, there is an unexplained delay of a few seconds before the motor actually spins. Once its made the first start for the day all seems fine till its cold again and it then reverts.

Have just replaced the a/c motor capacitor but I can't tell yet if its fixed. Will now recheck all the belt tensions and also try oiling the end bush on the motor.

Has any member with an Elmo ST 1200 experienced this baffling delay on cold start and why is it so?

This is the question which more and more members are asking themselves. Time will tell if anyone discovers the cure.

dogtor frankarnstein [Smile]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 18, 2015 08:10 AM

How long is the delay Frank?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 18, 2015 10:24 AM

Frank and Andrew ... I'm going to start a new topic on the delayed motor starting problem.

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010038

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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