8mm Forum: Destruction of faded and pinky/red prints.

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Topic: Destruction of faded and pinky/red prints.

Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted April 15, 2017 12:20 PM

Quote;

"It is possible that we...have grown so old and inflexible that we have outlived our usefulness".

Spock talking to his faded film collection...(although could have been Kirk...)

[Smile]

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted April 15, 2017 12:20 PM

I do agree with Rob regarding the intentions of the creators of the work.
I just don't see how it's helping the hobby in any particular way to destroy faded prints as long as there are some collectors who enjoy them. They are usually very affordable.
I don't feel the prints themselves are of any particular historical value though, unless we're talking about the last surviving print of a particular title.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted April 15, 2017 12:23 PM

It is a difficult one, I agree, Michael, because I certainly enjoyed that print back in the day and learned a lot from it, but I couldn't really see the DP watching it with me without tearing his hair out!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 15, 2017 02:28 PM

I watched A Fish Called Wanda and Lethal Weapon again on first receipt of finally obtaining a SH 30 not long back.

Judging from what I saw, both of these fine films have at least 20 years left in them if kept in even reasonable conditions as I like to.

We ain't talking refrigeration here!
There are still quite a few that look absolutely fine still.
Even ones on the slight turn I see, I will conservatively give a decade to without major issues concerning fade.
Just keep em below 10 degrees Celsius. 😊

Norway's good for such prints I hear, at this time of the year!😂😂

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted April 15, 2017 03:32 PM

It is a pity that the crappy fast fade stock was ever even bought into use. Home movies made by us using Standard 8 and super 8 kodak when i was just 10, (45 years ago), is as good now as it was then. Why the hell did anything else get used? I know it was probably cheap and all about profit etc but Eastman should be sued when you consider how much home movies cost to buy. Its not like they were 9.99.
No one gives a dam about Videos or DVDs, if they go wrong buy another one for a couple of quid but home movies were always expensive so those sold for home viewing as opposed to hire should have always been put out on decent stocks. [Wink]

Only in my opinion [Big Grin]

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted April 15, 2017 03:45 PM

my earlier comments were with regard to some b/w prints not worth keeping,
I have also junked badly faded and scratched colour items.
if its turned red/brown,has bad tramlines and loads of splices,put it out of its misery!
I also commend super 8 warehouse,because he describes his films very carefully,and will say if a film has lost some of its colour,and any other faults, eg lines etc. so you know what you are getting.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 15, 2017 03:52 PM

you know instinctively , what to expect if you regularly collect film David.

I got "bit" on my viacom Elvis print only because I had a reasonable print to begin with. The seller described his as much better, it wasn't it was knackered totally!
It was utter lies.

Stick with instinct, learn by my mistakes and question EVERYONE except dealers such as Ian, or private collectors such as Kevin or Stuart or Tom etc!

Top Tips there if you care to follow any of them! [Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted April 15, 2017 05:08 PM

ive been collecting off and on 40 years Andrew.
I use the few dealers we have left in the uk,and just recently,have had to return a lot of films . Thankfuly these dealers are decent and will always refund. I have wondered though if they should check all films thoroughly,and not just the first few feet. perhaps this is unrealistic,but it would save a lot of trips to the post office.

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 339
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2016

posted April 16, 2017 12:04 AM

I don't collect film so I won't offer an opinion. I will say that this is a very interesting discussion and I've enjoyed the points you all have made:

Does the continued existence of these prints harm the hobby?
Would the removal of these prints from circulation just drive up prices?
Would the creators of these films want them viewed in this condition?
Do things have a lifetime? When they've faded past a certain point, is the soul gone? Are they just ghosts?
Should something be discarded when someone, somewhere might appreciate it?

[ April 16, 2017, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Tom Spielman ]

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted April 16, 2017 02:55 AM

I only junked my red 16mm because I honestly didn't think I could even give it away and to answer one of Tom's questions, I really don't think the film makers would appreciate faded prints.

I once watched something I'd shot on a mate's TV which was calibrated all wrong and it drove me nuts!!

On the other hand, someone like Lucas would probably burn all of our full length slightly grainy prints of "Star Wars" given half the chance.

I once took a slightly faded print of "All the Presidents Men" to the bring & buy at Blackpool and despite asking only about £20.00 there was no interest...still have it if anyone wants it!

But then again, I do have some pink super 400 footers that hold such happy memories of being a kid that I could never part with them.

Just slightly off topic, but I had my mate over the other day for one of our regular movie watching days and one of the choices was the Blu-ray of "Where Eagles Dare".

As we were both marvelling at the quality, I was telling him how much I used to pay for film prints of big titles, many of which would now be faded.

I do love film, but we live in very fortunate times for movie lovers.

I remember reading about film fade on 16mm prints back in the 90's and people contemplating the prospect of fade on 8mm, which hadn't really started at that point.

It is kinda sad watching my now pink 400ft "Star Wars", but then again, I wish I had aged as well as it has!! [Smile]

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted April 16, 2017 02:03 PM

I was gutted when I had to destroy my faded to red 16mm print of
Tales Of Terror along with others.
However I felt it was the right thing to do and still do.

I don't think taking red faded prints out of circulation is going to have a significant increase on prices of good prints in
the long term.

I think my 16mm print of Hammer Films 'Plague Of The Zombies "
is on its way out colour wise.
Oh well that's another one for the wheelie bin I suppose.
Never mind I will gain a couple more empty spools.

Good quality prints are in a different section of the market.
Anyone who wants to buy good quality prints would not touch poor
prints with a 10 foot barge pole anyway.

The same applies to my other interests of vinyl records and comic books.

Some people are already exploiting these markets buy asking high prices for poor quality vinyl pressings and comic books.

However the arse will fall out of these markets as less people buy into them when common sense overrides mere nostalgia and collectors finally realise they have bought worthless junk.

Its only as Tom states ... stuff after all.
[Big Grin]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted April 16, 2017 04:58 PM

Where there's life there's hope. What 'if' someone finds a solution for bringing back color to faded prints?

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 873
From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008

posted April 17, 2017 03:50 AM

Okay, here's an example:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/401308414860

This is quite pink. But if it were an interesting subject, like this would be to me, the space program, then I'd find it hard to bin just for being red. If that was all and it was otherwise good condition. But if it was littered with splices or had tramlines then it would go in the bin. It would be a judgement though, overall how I felt about it...

[ April 17, 2017, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Steven J Kirk ]

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted April 17, 2017 06:00 AM

Yes Steve that's a fine example of a pink print on 16mm.
Just the kind I would not consider keeping or buying even
at £19.99.

Why would i when its available on a region free DVD for around
£12 - £ 13 with no fade problems. Just as the makers intended them to be seen. [Smile]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012

posted April 17, 2017 08:35 AM

Just seen the red print for sale of The Pink Panther I started laughing. I have a couple of really red ones The 200ft Walton It's All Over Town, still can watch it though. My Kelly's Heroes 16mm scope feature is not faded, but khaki it is a war film.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted April 17, 2017 08:38 AM

David, you know, you mentioning "Plague of Zombies" is quite interesting in that I love those Hammer films and really admire the cinematography. I would have dearly loved the Derann 4 x 400ft back when I was a kid.

I have the Blu-ray of it and it is beautiful, but a lot of the re-mastered Hammer films for Blu-ray were very heavily criticised from all and sundry about colour balance / correction, etc.

Larry's post about being able to bring back the colour to faded film prints actually brought shivers to my spine for a moment. OMG! I may have thrown out retrievable prints.

But then given the criticism regarding carefully restored and re-colour calibrated HD releases, I think we're pretty safe in our actions to bin certain prints????

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted April 17, 2017 10:12 AM

Rob I still have the 1x 400 foot version of Plague Of The Zombies.
I have not checked the colour lately on that one though.
I too am a big Hammer Film and have seen the Blu - Ray version
on my son's video projection system.
I thought it looked brilliant despite the colour criticisms from
these so called experts.

I suspect most of them only saw the Hammer Films on a tube colour television anyway.

I showed the 35mm prints a few times at the cinemas I worked in
and don't know what the hell these experts are talking about.
I think the Blu-Ray looked every bit as good as the 35mm prints.
Those experts must have very photographic memories indeed.

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Chris Bird
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 218
From: Kingston upon Thames, UK
Registered: Jul 2013

posted April 17, 2017 10:29 AM

This has been a most fascinating thread, and really interesting to see the differing opinions from so many advanced collectors.

My own opinion is that it's risky trying to police the hobby by destroying prints we regard as inferior. One man's rubbish is another man's treasure and all that.

Many more pre-LPP prints will fade over the years, and one thing's certain, there will be no more prints struck of the vast majority of titles.

I concentrate mainly on silent era titles, and have kept various prints in poor condition but of very rare titles that would be hard to replace. And I am alarmed by how much rarer some titles seem to have become than they were when I began collecting in the 90s.

Filmmakers might not wish to see their films shown faded to pink, but it's probably safe to say they also wouldn't like their work cut down to 18 minute digests and reduced from widescreen to 4:3! So I don't think the 'filmmaker wouldn't like it' argument is a good enough case for destroying films that some of us might treasure.

Just a suggestion - if people have prints they regard as not worth keeping, why not offer them on the forum free to anyone who wants them, provided postage is paid for? At least that way these prints can be given a last chance at finding a new home before being destroyed. I put unwanted prints on the free table at the Rickmansworth fair, and they get snapped up.

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 339
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2016

posted April 17, 2017 10:52 AM

Larry: I guess anything is possible. However I know that what can be done today is exceptionally expensive to do photochemically and what most film archives opt to do instead is attempt to do it digitally.

Doing it digitally doesn't restore the original film of course but allows better prints to be made.

Who knows, perhaps someday some smart nano-technology could compare a faded print to a digital or unfaded print and restore the dyes to a like new state. My guess is that it would be an extremely expensive process and from a practical standpoint, to what end?

It would be far easier I would think just to make a new print. Apparently there are places that will still stripe film. And Kodak says they will be reproducing ektachrome reversal. What would a reverse telecine film look like that was made from a blu-ray? I'm sure you couldn't legally sell such a thing and you'd probably have to process it yourself because I doubt any lab would. However, I think legally one is still entitled to make a backup copy of the movies they purchase.

None of that is easy or inexpensive, but probably cheaper than restoring a faded super 8 copy.

It seems that there are at least a few of you that restore or improve the original audio tracks by re-recording from a digital source. What if you could do the same on a new film with the images?

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

posted April 19, 2017 01:45 PM

David, since such film will never, ever be manufactured again, why don't you sell it as home theater decor? Everyone should have a reel mounted on their wall, don't you think? Well, I do.

EDIT:
You could be losing out on some serious money!!!

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 19, 2017 04:24 PM

I sold a lot of John Wayne shorts to a fellow collector for his man cave and that is actual what he did mount them on a wall plus a fully functioning Elmo projector. Did look surreal as if he had been out big game cine hunting👹👹👹

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