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Author Topic: Scrapping Faded Prints
Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted March 13, 2018 10:48 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Jason

Totally agree about the boxes if I have any without film. I am more than happy to give them away for someone to put there own films into. The box art is very important and wont be thrown out.......good idea Jason [Smile]

Even with the boxes and reels from the 16mm films I got rid off the other day will again soon be used for better storage for the "good stuff" [Smile]

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1236
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 14, 2018 02:58 AM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin
Ref VS,the smell alone would be enough for me to throw them away,any signs of it would be enough for a tip run as I just don't see the point and stay well away from them,Mark

--------------------
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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 14, 2018 04:37 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Mark

My difference of opinion regarding VS stems from a number of prints I have seen over the years where only one part of a three part feature, all stored tight in boxes together, has VS and the other two are fine. No one has ever proven to me why three parts, all acetate, can live together literally for twenty or more years and yet only one gets VS. If it is 'catching' why did the other two parts not get 'infected'?

A retired Shell Research chemist friend of mine had some thoughts about this and, even though he was not a cine film man, concluded the VS problem must have started because of differences in the way the different parts were processed - ie: actually at the time the print was made. All OK for a number of years then the base starts to deteriorate. But not one iota of proof it has passed to the other parts even when in the same box for a long, long time.

This is fact, not the often read horror stories that somehow acetic acid can travel between a distance from one reel to another and 'infect' other reels.

Ones I did throw out for VS that did not project or had the classic octagonal look and were sticky on the reel included Swingtime, The French Connection, Stage Fright and some Disney shorts that had faded too.

The only feature I have kept with VS is, as mentioned, It's A Wonderful Life, and I will continue to do so until it loses focus or won't wind flat - the VS shorts are some Disney extracts, IB Tech, flat and beautiful on screen.

Decaying Nitrate though - ah yes there is another story altogether and although my 35mm Nitrates (all gone to pro archives now) had no sign of breakdown, even in those over 100 years old, it is a film base to be respected, carefully handled and stored, and never messed with at any time when it starts to decay.

Kevin

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1236
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 14, 2018 04:51 AM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin
If your happy to keep them and enjoy then that's fine,it's not even about the idea of spreading etc etc with me it's the smell and I wouldn't go out of my way to store it elsewhere. I appreciate it's a topic that collectors have very different views as does this topic on here about scrapping faded prints but films with VS in any kind of form wouldn't be something I would keep.

I will also add I have some faded prints that I wouldn't part with but ones I do bin are things I wouldn't watch and sell either,I have a loft full of them that will be sorted for the reels and chucked when I get the enthusiasm to do so,Mark

--------------------
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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 14, 2018 05:01 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If all the Eastman prints were scrapped, what would have happened to all these composite prints that have being sold here and elsewhere?

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 14, 2018 05:01 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I understand fully Mark, and I can promise all on here that these few fully projectable VS prints will be on the way to the bin if they look bad on screen - never passed on or sold.

Just wondering if some of the critics regarding dumping faded prints realise just how faded we are talking about ie: I still keep prints with faded colour, just not ones that are now completely pink, red or purple?

Robert - the unfaded parts would come up as odd reels for sale as you will often see on dealer lists and on here too.

Kevin

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted March 14, 2018 07:31 AM      Profile for David Hardy   Email David Hardy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay guys I am going to "Come Clean" on this topic.

I have in the past destroyed and binned many fading or red/pinky prints.

All those prints were not rare or lost films on any formats.

Yes I did offer free prints to collectors if they were willing to come and pick them up or pay the postage or transit costs.

Some of them were on 35mm and the colour and condition was fine.
However for reasons of space and they had to go along with some 35mm a Westar 35mm film projector. However there was also some 16mm too.

Amongst them was a much cherished 16mm copy of Tales Of Terror which was beet red and stinking to high hell of VS and had very sticky emulsion.

So on those counts I am guilty of film murder by some but have no remorse on my actions.

Yes I did state that all 8mm / 16mm and 35mm prints should be binned in order to take them out of circulation.

However I am now of the mind that if I can sell my remaining or any future fading print to some collectors ( mugs ) at hugely inflated prices I am now more than willing to do so in order to fund my other interest.

If I don't get the asking price after a time period then in the bin they will still go.

Self-interested. ...Yes !

Me now becoming part of the problem ... Yes ! ( maybe )

Common sense ... Yes !

Hey I paid a lot of money for those prints over the decades and would now like to recoup some of my money if at all possible.

There is money to be made in selling that old junk film stock and if someone wants to buy and is willing to pay my asking price plus postage and packing then I am your man ! Hahahahah !

[Smile] [Big Grin]

P.S.

Would you be willing to pay any Cinema full ticket price if they were to show 35mm faded badly scratched prints as the norm ?

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted March 14, 2018 11:44 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I must say that I DID scrap one film in all my collecting ...

I had a print of "Birth Of A Nation", full feature, on some form of standard 8mm, and it even had a magnetic stripe and soundtrack ...

... but it also got a very bad vinegar smell and it got to the point where i had to toss it. i found out later that the venegar smell might just have been the glur that held the mag stripe on the print, (at least, I have heard that this can be the case with some vinegar smell issues).

The shame of it all was that it was incredibly sharp, but it was starting to get so warped as well, that I "binned" it. [Frown]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Rob Koeling
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Brighton, UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 14, 2018 01:00 PM      Profile for Rob Koeling   Email Rob Koeling   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I must say that I am also a bit bothered by people saying that "I don't understand why anyone would watch a red film and therefore I throw it in the bin". I really dislike red film and for 99 out of 100 films, I wouldn't want to waste my time on it, but hey that is me. I have a few prints of obscure East European animation, and they have lost most of their color. I would love to have these films in the original color, but I am not even sure if film prints exist with the original color. For these ones, I am perfectly happy to watch them as they are. And I do watch them more then some other films that are perfect in any way.

When I first started collecting, I was a lot less fuzzy about the quality of the prints. I just wanted to feed my projectors. Over time I have gotten rid of most inferior prints, and either replaced them with better quality or let them go completely. Mostly sold for pennies or given away, but in a few cases thrown out because I couldn't find anyone who wanted it.

Many years ago I ended up with about 60 full length 35mm features. About halve of them were faded Eastman prints. One of them was a badly faded print of a John Wayne movie. I wouldn't have been interested in that film even if it had been in perfect condition, but you know, people have their reasons to like a film. I put out a list of the prints that I wanted to get rid off with honest descriptions of the state they were in. I got a response from a guy who lived elsewhere in Europe who desperately wanted that John Wayne film. He had bought the jacket that mr Wayne wears in that film at an auction and he wanted to watch that film on 35mm while wearing that jacket.... We all have our guilty pleasures and if they are as innocent as this, how could I deny him that pleasure? He spent a fair amount of money to ship 20kgs of film across Europe and everybody was happy. It is 20 years later and he has probably found a better print of the film by now, but at that time it was just all that was available. These films might not be unique, but new prints are not being made anymore and we can't just walk into a high street shop to pick up a new one. Let's not be too strict (?) about this!

- Rob

[ March 14, 2018, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Rob Koeling ]

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted March 14, 2018 01:46 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin, did you say toy have IB tech colour films with VS.

Sorry for my ignorance here, (still relatively new to 16mm), but i thought only B/W films suffered with VS. Are colour films also in danger, i understand the later stocks are not likely to get the problem. [Embarrassed] [Wink]

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 14, 2018 01:57 PM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Tom

VS is not connected to the emulsion it is the film base, acetate, that is changing and emmiting acetic acid.

Colour or black and white acetate films can be affected.

IB Tech, Agfa, Kodachrome, Kodak SP, even Eastman LPP can be a VS print if the base is acetate. Any guage too, 8mm, 16mm 35mm etc.

Newer film if on polyester stock cannot develop VS they are not made up of the same chemicals as acetate stock at all.

It is rarer than you may think so don't worry too much, a bit like bad news in the papers - you always hear when a collector finds a stinky print but they never mention the hundreds of non stinky ones.

Kevin

[ March 14, 2018, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Kevin Clark ]

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted March 14, 2018 02:07 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for that info Kevin,

Now i know. [Wink]

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 14, 2018 02:18 PM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
 -

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Rob Koeling
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Brighton, UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 14, 2018 02:24 PM      Profile for Rob Koeling   Email Rob Koeling   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oops, sorry Kevin... Maybe not the right word. It wasn't meant to be inflammatory or controversial.... I'll change that word. I understand that these topics get very heated quickly. I had no intention to stoke it up.

Also, when it comes to film, I'm happy to admit that I am the biggest snob of them all.

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 14, 2018 03:35 PM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Rob, it is perhaps excessive pride that can be misunderstood as snobbery sometimes - getting the film you always wanted, perfect in every way, will be a wind up to some even if the majority are happy for you - conversely we may all have our own personal reasons for not wanting to keep shelves of below par films, and I won't appreciate having to ask anyone for permission to keep, pass on or dump anything, I am sensible enough to do things as I see fit without worrying about what others may think.

Kevin

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted March 14, 2018 04:54 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i know what you mean there,
we can only have a modest size 16mm collection but the titles i have i am very proud of. when i got dances with wolves i was as proud as punch. i know there are blokes out there who have superb titles, big box office titles like the Indiana Jones movies, James bond and the like but thanks to you Kevin and D Guest i have acquired some stonking titles and hopefully a few more later to make up the last of my free space. so i am proud to be a film snob [Wink]
As for fade, i am in the process of moving titles on, including a Sweeney and minder episode on 16, personally,for me, i am happy with films if the fade is in very early stages but dont wish to keep anything red or pink. These sales will continue to fund any new purchases.

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted March 14, 2018 06:14 PM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
re films I have films from the 1930s and still as good now I have bought films from kevin and all been first class and I have sold him as many to .I think the biggest part is how look after them at the end of the day its your choice what you do with them

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1236
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 14, 2018 06:48 PM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any film worth showing should be in the best condition possible,I used to show films at the local school some years ago and made sure everything shown was perfect,most of the films I've ever binned started at this time,I was always looking for new titles and the 200 and 400ft Disney's were always popular but finding unfaded titles became a mission at times,I soon built up a collection but did end up with a few faded purchases,those binned were the sort of thing you find all over eBay and see in abundance at every film fair so no loss there,400ft Star Wars (you know the rare one) I've had quite a few red prints of this and again still loads around,these I just wouldn't watch and being films that were produced in vast numbers it's no loss,Mark

--------------------
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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted March 14, 2018 09:44 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well after this topic, it might be time for Doug to change my profile picture...to this one [Smile]
 -

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1236
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 15, 2018 02:52 AM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Graham,
Don't bother changing the picture to that,use the picture of the bin bag instead!! Ha ha. Mark.

--------------------
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Elmo 16CL
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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted March 15, 2018 03:01 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike
I wonder how many posting on this topic recognise that still from Father Ted. One of my all time favourite comedy series. Quite pertinent to this thread too in a way.

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 15, 2018 04:24 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of course anyone can do what they like with their own property. If I was going to get rid of a print for any reason, or dump a projector in a landfill, I would just do it privately, I don't need to advertise the fact, or take photos. If my wife saw me taking pictures and asked what I was doing, and I said I wanted to destroy a film, but I wanted to post the pictures on the internet for the world would see, she would think it was time to send for the men in white coats. Why do you need an audience? There must be better ways to get your 15 minutes of fame in this world.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 15, 2018 05:00 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It seems like a perfectly valid topic to me. Let's say there was a forum oriented towards pet care and somebody started a thread about having to put one down. Granted, it's not exactly "I got a new puppy!" on the happiness scale, but for better or worse, it's part of the process. You may as well talk about it.

If you are in this hobby long enough, along with the treasures it's natural to accumulate some crap. It takes up room. It leads to chaos. It becomes a burden. It's what pushes people across the hobbyist/hoarder line.

It isn't even always voluntary. Sooner or later somebody is cleaning out an attic or basement and if you don't politely decline, their crap becomes yours.

Sooner or later you have to thin the herd. It's better if you can find somebody who wants it, but the worst of it isn't of use to anyone.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 15, 2018 08:57 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You would think Graham had posted a picture of himself drowning a sack full of fluffy kittens the way some of you are harping on about it.

He has made, and continues to make, this forum a constantly interesting and informative place to read and respond to.

Perhaps the men in white coats may be of better use sent out to help those showing the obvious signs of hoarder syndrome, almost unable to open their front doors due to so much precious clutter and crap they just cannot bear to part with, poor dears.

Kevin

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 15, 2018 09:04 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin,

Do you have a copy of "A Thousand Cuts"?

Each chapter is some view of film collecting, some good, some not so much. Some are these are tales of middle aged and later men living in houses full of film and equipment. A lot of it is filling the rooms where their wives and kids used to live. You might have to turn sideways climbing the stairs to avoid an avalanche.

-and in every case it started with just one item too many.

I'm keeping my copy available and have vowed to read it every couple of years!

Graham is one certainly of the good guys in this hobby. If I ever get to New Zealand I'd feel bad if I didn't get to meet him.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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