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» 8mm Forum   » 16mm Forum   » Can RED or PURPLE prints be good or VG condition?

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Author Topic: Can RED or PURPLE prints be good or VG condition?
Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted August 12, 2015 05:00 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage   Email Clinton Hunt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First of all I am not knocking the sellers descriptions etc as what you see is what you get and I would buy it if I wanted it or could afford it but.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/16mm-Feature-CAT-BALLOU-196 5-Lee-Marvin-Jane-Fonda-Comedy-Western-/281766456223?hash=item419a96eb9f

I see by the description
"This film is mounted on 3 x 1600' reels and printed on color stock. See photos for quality. This print is in good to very good condition. (some splices) The film has lab heads, Columbia logo, countdowns, titles and end credits."

I guess it is in good to VG condition when describing the actual film on the reels but the colour fade to me would personally reduce that rating?

I've also seen many auctions where the print is almost totally red and I have bought them so I have it in my collection.
I know the photos show what you get but how would a print with no colour fade be described??? AMAZING AND LIKE NEW ????

Just my thoughts guys [Smile]

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Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted August 12, 2015 06:10 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can't actually agree as I've always thought that condition is specifically a matter of the amount of wear, and colour is a separate matter.

Incidentally, although I think the print in question shows some fade, I've often heard collectors grade such a print as very good colour.

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Adrian Winchester

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Paul Suchy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 199
From: Westchester, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 12, 2015 06:16 PM      Profile for Paul Suchy   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Suchy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I try to separate the two; if the actual physical condition of the film is good, I say so. Then, I'll describe the color quality. Some don't mind red prints if they run well. If the color is good, but the print has a lot of splices, I don't want it. I can tolerate lines in the print more than splices. Alpha Blue Archives is a seller I have dealt with, and he was always fair with me.

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Paul Suchy

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted August 12, 2015 06:23 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can hardly consider a red print in good condition. Splices are not all the same. Once I bought a 16 mm print that appeared to be (very) full of splices. So when projecting I had my splicer beside me and my hand on the main knob ready to stop the projector a lot of times. Not only a single splice broke but could not notice anything wrong on the screen ! It was an optical sound film.

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Dominique

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted August 12, 2015 06:30 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage   Email Clinton Hunt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually those are good points and I just used that auction as an example to show what I was thinking [Smile]
I have red prints and yes it's great to have no splices or lines or anything - so I would describe them as good to VG condition with the colour turned red.

As I'm always learning and loving this hobby I will look at this is a different way - actual film condition and then seperately the colour fade since a vast majority have turned [Smile]

Cheers from New Zealand [Smile]

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Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted August 12, 2015 06:49 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's mainly a question of personnal taste. Some people will thrown red copies in the bin (I would never commit such a crime !) while other buy such films. Also there are somelevels of fading : you can see films completely red and other still watchable although pinkish. You can use a filter to improve the colours ; there are no miracles but sometimes it works well (dépends on the print).

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Dominique

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted August 12, 2015 07:43 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree that both should be stated independently of each other. For example, a few years ago I had a "My Friend Flicka" print in Eastmanred that was so pin sharp that it had to have been a 1950s direct 35mm reduction. Condition: mint (splices/wear). Color: D VS: yes.

Fetched about $30 on fleabay and saved a print from the bin.

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 873
From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008


 - posted August 12, 2015 08:24 PM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I started this thread also on the CAT BALLOU listing.

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001318

There is hardly any green in the print. The red and blue remaining gives it the purple look. Okay in some scenes but outdoor scenes probably look odd. I wouldn't rule out having a print like this especially if it was otherwise good condition.

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted August 13, 2015 03:54 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would consider the colour to be "acceptable" based on the frame shots. If I lived in America I would "Buy It Now" at $125.

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Maurice

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Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 508
From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
Registered: Feb 2015


 - posted August 13, 2015 12:00 PM      Profile for Dave Groves   Email Dave Groves   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But now it's fading it's all down hill, sadly. How long before it's totally purple? I recently bought 'The Thief of Bagdad' from a dealer who described it as 'fine colour and LPP stock'. It was nothing of the sort. Three odd reels with fading colour. So, what do you do? Wait for a better print (and wait forever) and probably find you can't afford it, or bite the bullet and, because it's a favourite, accept it's limitations? Another dealer sold me a Bowery Boys print but forgot to mention the 94 splices. As I'd seen very few about I got a £10 reduction (Yippee) and just put up with it. Fortunately we've got dvd to fill the gaps but it's not the same.

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Dave

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 14, 2015 06:34 AM      Profile for Gary Crawford   Email Gary Crawford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think in general "condition" means physical shape, splices, scratches...etc. Many sellers are people who found or inherited films and have no reason to think the color would fade or no way or knowledge to run the films. I've seen more than a few sellers who found old Castle "complete" editions films and thought honestly they were the complete feature. It's up to experienced collectors to ask the right questions and beware of the warning signs in an ad that signal trouble ahead.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted August 14, 2015 10:44 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gary, I understand what you mean but if someone cannot run the film, how can he know about the splices and the scratches ? If you look at the stock to see if there are, for example, scratches or not, you see at once if a film is red and even if you're not a specialist you should know something's wrong. The only exceprion I can see is if a collector has a description of all his films. A film may have been described 15 or 20 years ago as in good condition before the colours faded. But I'm not sure the majority of the faded films sold on EBay as "in good (or "very good") condition come from collectors who had this kind of catalogue of their films.

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Dominique

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Mark Silvester
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: England
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted August 29, 2015 04:45 AM      Profile for Mark Silvester   Email Mark Silvester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi all

when I was buying a lot of good stuff in 16mm...I got stung a few times with "red" prints...I hate em. Good for nothing to me. Quality should mean that "overall" measure sharpness..sound and whether it is red...or fading.

I hated them almost as much as advanced vinegar syndrome...my goodness I got a lot of vinegar stuff from Australia. It was that that caused me to get out of 16mm.

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Mark Silvester

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted August 29, 2015 05:44 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I recently tried a blue (camera) filter KB 20. It does improve a faded copy without of course completely ereasing the red appearance but the with and without filter difference is very noticeable. The picture is alhough less bright as this filter is dark blue. If you can find one for a few euros, pounds, dollars or whatever your currency is), it worths trying if you have fading prints.

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Dominique

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted August 29, 2015 06:04 AM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
most films that are colour start to fade tech prints hold colour well but tend to warp Agfa and Kodak also good Eastman I would never buy might be best to do what I do and stick yo black and white

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Steve Carter
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: Apr 2015


 - posted August 29, 2015 04:39 PM      Profile for Steve Carter     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dominique, I have glass camera filters different blue ones, I have also used a yellow/green filter which gives good effect and not so much loss of brightness...

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted August 29, 2015 04:54 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you for the tip, Steve !

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Dominique

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 873
From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008


 - posted August 30, 2015 01:43 PM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another print of CAT BALLOU, this time turning red:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16mm-Feature-Film-CAT-BALLOU-1965-Jane-Fonda-Lee-Marvin-WESTERN-COMEDY-/231670427509?hash=item35f0a22f75

Frustrating because I would love a great print of it...

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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