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Topic: Elmo ST 1200 HD M Belts

Tom Dee
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Phoenix AZ, USA
Registered: Oct 2014

posted November 29, 2014 09:38 PM

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I have just recently aquired a Elmo ST 1200 , when I opened the back up I noticed that there was like a black licorice looking thing in there which I assumed were the belts. I see the belts on E-Bay for different prices. My question is... are there any brands better than others to use, how many belts should be replaced, I see packs of 2, 3 and 4 belts. And I have never done this before...is it an easy job? what do I need to watch out for etc. Any help on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 30, 2014 06:37 AM

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Hi Tom,

You probably don't have a good belt in the machine anymore, so they'll all need to be replaced with one being optional.

My ST-1200HD showed up with a brand new set of belts, so I haven't had to change them (yet). From what I've heard the hardest one to change is the small one that drives the footage counter. Fortunately as long as you don't need it, you can skip this one.

I've always had good results with this E-bay seller:

isellprojectorbelts

He's not the cheapest, but there are a lot of cases where the belt needs to have a square cross section and the cheaper ones will come as round belts (large O-rings) and often these don't work as well or as long.

He also has other listings where he sells the belts individually or in smaller sets. He's pretty good at answering questions as well.

Sometimes a belt will go in as simply as putting it in place and snapping it over the pullies. In others you have to take some parts out and put them back afterwards. They are meant to be replaced, so it's not impossible. If there are sticky remains of the old belts they'll need to be cleaned out.

This is a service manual for an ST-1200. It may be useful here:

ST-1200 Service Manual

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Joe Taffis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1592
From: United States
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 30, 2014 09:52 AM

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What Steve said...also, the four belt set from Mark has the little counter belt. I found it pretty easy to change on the ST1200D models when you remove the lamp, but I gave up trying to change it on the ST1200HD....
I have made several purchases from Mark (isellprojectorbelts) off eBay with no problems and fast service. I sent you a PM with his e-mail address if you want to contact him directly [Wink]

[Wink]

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Joe Taffis

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted November 30, 2014 05:25 PM

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It really isn't so bad replacing the tiny counter belt once the counter assy has been removed.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 02, 2015 12:11 AM

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I just bought a Elmo ST1200HD also. Thanks for the link to the Service Manual Steve. I counted the 4 belts mentioned and yes they all need replacing ...however it looks like on the shutter wheel there is a badly deteriorated belt attached to it also. I'm not at all familiar with the ST1200HD...but from pictures I don't recall a belt on the shutter wheel....why?....seems odd. Replacing the shutter belt doesn't look like an easy task. Any comments about the shutter belt?

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted June 02, 2015 02:41 AM

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The shutter is surrounded by a rubber ring, and Janice is right. It's not an easy job to remove the old deteriorated rubber.

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Maurice

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Edwin van Eck
Master Film Handler

Posts: 312
From: Tilburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2015

posted June 02, 2015 06:43 AM

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For the belts and spare parts of the Elmo ST 1200 HD, you can have a look at the film projector spare part finder.

http://van-eck.net/itable.php?lang=nl&size=0&cat=film&merk=elmo&type=ST1200%20HD

Note that in a couple of day's we will start selling the main button (new using 3D printing techniques).

About the belt around the shutter. In some cases the rubber was bad here and we removed it. The projector seems te be working fine. But if needed we can have a look to also fabricate the shutter belt.

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Edwin van Eck
Van Eck Video Services

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 02, 2015 10:46 AM

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Finding the belts really isn't the problem. they are available on eBay...including the shutter belt. It's the process of removing the old belt and installing the new belt that I am asking about. From previous post on this forum some say you can just remove the shutter belt and the projector will run fine only a bit noisier. Has anyone tried removing the belt from the shutter wheel and installing a new belt? Instructions on eBay indicate you have to use contact cement to apply the new belt. This sounds like something a professional or experienced repair person would need to do. If not applied correctly I could see the shutter wheel being out of balance. What do you think?

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 02, 2015 11:04 AM

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Your timing is good Janice,

I have the five belt set on the way right now.

Mark (isellprojectorbelts) says you can do contact cement if you want, but it isn't mandatory.

-Besides, somebody who does the repairs you do should laugh at the puny threat of mere contact cement!

We'll find out soon. I think once the belt is in place, lifting it up and applying the cement a small section at a time wouldn't be too bad.

What concerns me is stretching this thin, narrow belt over the thin, narrow shutter wheel edge with the narrow passage through the projector chassis behind the wheel and also the rollers in the way. If it's easy to remove the roller assembly I am going to consider this.

It may come to needing a third or fourth hand on the job. My wife and son don't know it yet, but they may be...volunteered soon.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 02, 2015 11:17 AM

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I'm going to go ahead and buy the full 5 belt set also. Is it possible for you to take some video or pictures of your installation?

Just a thought Steve... Did your shutter wheel have the belt on it originally? If not, it may not need A shutter belt since the shutter wheel may have been sized to run without the belt.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 02, 2015 11:40 AM

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I'm not completely sure. I bought the machine used about 5 years ago and it didn't have the belt at that time.

There is some discoloration on the wheel edge that could be an indication that there was something cemented there at one time...

I think the thickness of the belt is not a big deal in the scheme of things, besides it is on the driven wheel so if anything it being gone would speed the machine up, when it is actually a little too slow.

Pictures? -certainly, video? -absolutely not!

-the freedom to swear is critical to success in this kind of work! [Wink]

[Wink]

I used to work with a technician that cursed at our projects in Italian. The stuff he built worked perfectly!

(Maybe we'll get whoever isn't the second set of hands to be the photographer...and cover my son's ears where needed!)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 02, 2015 12:30 PM

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The swearing part I totally understand Steve :-) It comes with the territory of working on these projectors. When I make a video I generally have to over-dub. If I used my original sound track I'd have to add "bleeps." [Eek!]

[Eek!]

[Wink]

[Eek!]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 02, 2015 02:30 PM

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When I had a HD, I prefered to leave the shutter belt in place as it really did dampen the noise from the clutch drive chain.

The projector always ran smoother than the others I had without the shutter belt fitted but it did also cause a slight amount of vibration through the imbalance of the bonded belt.

Never needed to remove or replace mine but I believe once I sold this machine on, the eventual owner chose to remove it.

With it on, the drive becomes rubber on rubber so there is less chance of slippage from the clutch drive wheel if it is slightly in need of adjustment as often can be the case on the ST range.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 03, 2015 08:04 PM

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Welll.....

The belts showed up and the process of putting the shutter wheel belt on was at least as bad as I had imagined.

Imagine putting a bicycle tire on the rim...but the rim is passing through a narrow slot in a wall and you have access to maybe a third of the circumference! It pops off the top, then the bottom, then right and left. It's also a black belt in a dark space: it's tough to keep track of it!

The bonus is in this case the "rim" isn't a nice valley between two flanges to hold the "tire" in place, but flat edge.

You really need many hands to hold it in place while you stretch it into place all the way around: the catch is they would have to be tiny, tiny hands! (It's a job for elves!)

The best I could do was find the smallest Ty-Raps we had, line up the belt on the wheel, ty-rap it through the shutter aperture, turn the wheel part of a turn, and repeat until at last it snapped in place.

The clearances were so tight I had to put the Ty-Rap's sliders on the inside of the shutter or the wheel wouldn't turn.

I don't trust this to not slip sideways and fall off the wheel. My next stop is a hardware store for some contact cement. The Ty-Raps will come off as I'm applying the cement.

-and no, I didn't curse!

Now excuse me, I believe I've earned a beer!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 03, 2015 08:38 PM

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Thanks Steve!!! Cable Ties!!!!...Now that tip is worth the price of admission. [Smile]

[Smile]

As far as the contact cement...My experience has been to put contact cement on both sides of the surfaces you are cementing and then press them together. Obviously this can't be done with the shutter wheel belt. Steve...how do you plan on applying the cement? There doesn't seem to be much give in the belt to lift it to apply cement.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 03, 2015 09:28 PM

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My plan (for the moment at least) is to use the parts of the Ty-Wraps I cut off as an applicator. I may insert some kind of spacers on either side of where I am working to lift the belt off the wheel and give me some working clearance.

-there is a little bit of "give" in the belt. There is enough it doesn't take much pressure to get it to slide sideways on the wheel, and that's what concerns me here.

-I am only motivated enough to do this once!

If it slips off, it stays off!

BTW: I had to disassemble the rollers and push them out of the way as much as I could to gain better access.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 03, 2015 09:32 PM

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I'm wondering if something like this industrial adhesive with a small tip might be easier to apply http://eclecticproducts.com/e6000-precision-tip-adhesive.html

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014

posted June 03, 2015 09:42 PM

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If anyone gets to wanting to try to change their counter belt if/when needed....we documented one way on how to do it here recently. It is still working great!
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009616# 000000
Have fun!
Matt

ps: @Janice- Welcome to the st1200 club [Smile]

[Smile]

I really like the thing myself. Lots of fun and just the right amount of Super8mm nerdiness to play around with all the buttons and knobs [Smile]

[Smile]

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--
Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 03, 2015 09:57 PM

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I thought I lost the counter belt, then I saw it and was amazed how thin it is!

(This is a battle for another day!)

Janice, I will consider your adhesive!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 03, 2015 11:29 PM

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Thanks Matthew for the counter belt instructions. I love anything with pictures [Smile]

[Smile]

I think next to the shutter belt the counter is the most difficult to install ... most people don't bother.

I've always wanted a 1200HD. The one I got looks like it hasn't been used in 30+ years. The motor wouldn't even turning over at first...but with a little prodding it's running ok now. Hopefully...cleaning...some new belts...and lubrication will restore it to working order so I can test it with film and for sound.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted June 04, 2015 04:46 PM

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ive had a couple of the HDs with the rubber outer on the shutter.
When these and the belts turn to goo my only solution was to take it all out and do a proper clean up.
The best way for us on the shutter was to send the shutter itself to John White here in the UK who will then keep yours but send you one which has been turned on a lathe and had all the rubber removed and the edge of the shutter very slightly skimmed, what this does is it gives you a flat surface instead of a slightly rounded one,allowing the 18 and 24fps rollers much better,smoother and quieter running with a good match of surface between the rubber rollers and the edge of the shutter.
You may recall in the past i also had a number of the 24fps clutch drives manufactured.
As for the belts themselves i only ever use the square section belts as theses are designed to sit properly in the grooves.
The seal type or round belts do the job but wont last as long and wont sit proper;y in the grooves of the drive wheels.
i usually use an electrical cleaner to clean up the belts every couple of years and very importantly the grooves that the belts sit in. Its a slow and tedious job but keeps it all clean and the belts grip better with no slip. [Wink]

[Wink]

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 05, 2015 12:20 AM

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Tom are you saying you only replace the shutter...but not the rubber belt?

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted June 05, 2015 01:30 PM

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Hi Janice,
Sorry, no I meant I change all the belts but also,(if the shutter is the type with the rubber outer ring), replace the shutter if you can get one which has been fixed up the way John White does them here.
If necessary it may be that the outer rubber has to be removed but to do this it is a job requiring patience and time so as not to damage the shutters metal edge, it is quite a soft metal and if damage will lead to all sorts of problems.

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 05, 2015 02:14 PM

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Tom, I have removed the old rubber off the shutter wheel. Yes it was a tedious job. Especially since I didn't remove any parts and had very little access to the wheel. I used a small Exacto blade and carefully shaved off the old gooey rubber. I cleaned the residue off with alcohol and GooGone.

Do you or anyone else have a procedure for removing the shutter or the entire shutter assembly? I have checked the repair manual, but oddly there doesn't seem to be any diagrams relating to the shutter.

If anyone has any pictures and/or instructions relating to replacing the shutter wheel belt...this would be very helpful.

[ June 05, 2015, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 05, 2015 05:31 PM

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I would be able to do this for you Janice if no one else posts them first. I would need a day or so to take photographs of the procedure while doing the work if nobody else posts them for you in the meantime. [Smile]

[Smile]

It is whole lot easier on a GS from what I have seen but not too bad a job I don't think on an ST1200 and nowhere near as challenging as some projectors like Bauer etc etc.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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