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Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer

Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted August 07, 2019 07:02 AM

Thank you Mike,
Looks like it will be OK. As promised, will send you a board that you can test.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 07, 2019 09:41 AM

Cheers Stan.
I am very much looking forward to that

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 08, 2019 06:46 AM

I have just been given a quote for the camera via the imaging source and a dealer in the uk.

£168 ($204) (inc tax shipping)

Next I need to find out which lens and lens mount to go with it.

I think it is a bit excessive as the quote also includes a 5m usb cable for £30 which I did not ask for.

I don't need 5m of it and I already have this type of connector.

Imaging source camera

[ August 08, 2019, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted August 08, 2019 03:00 PM

yes indeed, I find it rather expensive! It is necessary to solicit concurence ... For the cable, a standard usb goes very well. the lens holder is a special angle cutter, the standard are not suitable. I paid too much in france (french dealer), but I think we can find cheaper. I designed this support for 3D printing, when I finalized my tests, I will make it available on thingiverse... [Smile]

at this moment I finalize the capstan motor support.
This 3D model is inspired by Stan's idea. thanks to him.

I also test different 3D printing materials : HDGLASS, PETG, ABS...
especially for the toothed pulley which is very small and must be strong and very precise. Which is not obvious in FDM 3D printing. But I have to try.

I'll post pictures when I'm more advanced ...

[ August 08, 2019, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted August 08, 2019 09:36 PM

Mike, that is very expensive.
I bought the camera from:
https://www.oemcameras.com/dfm-72buc02-ml.htm
Much cheaper. Not sure what teh shipping costs are to the UK but you can check it.
The lens that I recommend is:
https://www.oemcameras.com/lens-tbl-12-2c-5mp.htm
And the holder:
TLH 10-2s from oemcameras.com (will need to contact them)
Alternatively wait for Kamel's holder.

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Ken Abruzzo
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Winter Garden, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2017

posted August 08, 2019 09:46 PM

Stan, that's great about the board/kit.

I just looked at the camera links you provided. It looks like from the one for the camera (assuming I'm reading it correctly), you can order the camera along with the lens and mount from a drop down list. It came up at about $185 for the three. Again, that's assuming I'm reading it correctly. Does that sound about right?

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 09, 2019 06:43 AM

I have sent an email to oemcameras to see if they will ship to the Uk and asked for a price on the camera and lens and mount inc shipping, using the drop down menu suggested by Ken. Thanks for that.
Let's see what comes back.

Thanks Stan

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted August 09, 2019 08:38 AM

The only issue may be the holder. It has a tab on the side with a lock screw and that interferes with the Wolverine bracket.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/SHPdQtbJw8T6Cd8u6

I will double check today. Believe it still works with the 3/8" (9.5mm) spacers but not with 6mm spacers. The 3/8" give a bit lower optical resolution based on my tests but the difference is so small that it may not be worth the trouble.
Alternatively, you can wait for Kamel's custom holder.
Board update:
- Still have to test the capstan operation.
- The interface to the Wolverine power supply is via small adapter board and planning to replace that with the connector but that requires very fine soldering so trying to get the assembly service set up and get it done professionally. The end cost will not be much different since it takes me more than 2 hours to complete the board. Will still handsolder the boards for Mike and Kamel.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 09, 2019 09:34 AM

Thanks for that information Stan.

If Kamel is able to print a mount I would be very grateful, and happy to any pay costs in sending one to the uk..

I am very honored that I shall receive a hand soldered board!

I have made it known in my Royal Navy forums that the people who have previously sent me 8mm film to scan and paid me, are invited to send me back the RN reels for a free re scan on the modified Wolverine.

I intend to share my good fortune with those who have previously trusted me with thier film.

There is some amazing aircraft carrier footage out that that deserves a better quality scan

I have said that will be towards the end of the year, possibly during the Christmas break, I shall be re scanning my reels first.

It seems only fair to share my good fortune with the veterans but I have left myself wide open to re scanning around 2500ft of film ... oh well, it will be worth it.

It won't be long before we can start a new Wolverine thread.

The "Jelavic/Ikhlef Wolf Scanner " review [Smile]

Quote back from oemcameras:

comes to around £207 ($250) for the camera lens and mount & int shipping, so I may just buy the camera and lens in the uk and hope Kamel might be able to send me a mount.

I have asked the people who quoted me yesterday here in the uk, for another quote, for the camera and lens and no USB cable or mount and then I can compare prices.

The quote for the camera alone was around £120 inc tax ($144)from them, which is ok i guess.

oemcameras quote:

In the time I have written this I have had a quote back for the camera and lens supplied in the uk.
I don't think this unreasonable

[ August 09, 2019, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted August 09, 2019 10:57 AM

No problem Mike. As soon as I finish. still some tests.
It's quite long and I had some problems with my 3D printer, but it will be solved.

For the "new wolverine", it is especially Stan who realized this crazy and brilliant project, it is to him that returns all the merit. I only made a very small contribution. [Smile]

I do not know exactly how tall it is for lens support. Stan can certainly give us more precision because he is very advanced in the camera test. I designed the most precise height to have the best focus. I think between 16 and 20mm of tube height ... To confirm with Stan.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 09, 2019 11:18 AM

Kamel, no hurry at all, but it is nice to know you are happy to help.

Yes Stan has made an enormous contribution without which we would be stuck in the hell of 720p mp4 video but you have been there too, So we are lucky to have both of you around to share your knowledge.

There is still a way to go before my Wolverine will be opened up so there is no hurry for the mount and, as you say, Stan is the man who has the knowledge of the size and depth it would need to be.

I hope the problems with your 3D printer are not needing an expensive solution and that you get it fixed.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted August 09, 2019 11:33 AM

Thanks again guys. We all contributed to this project from different angles. Happy with the way the things are going. I will check the holder height and also see if the imagingsource holder fits.Will post the results this afternoon.
Here is the update:
The (Elvitec.fr – Stemmer Imaging Group : http://www.elvitec.fr/) holder that Kamel sent me is capable of HD resolution(1900x1300). The one from imagingsource is not. It only works with lower rez (1300x960).
I repeated the comparison tests this afternoon and found out that the lower rez is actually marginally better. Here are the results:
Lower rez:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z65uwfiAKn9F3pwMA
Higher rez:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YxKwitGDzZ9R5Gnv5

So going with the complete camera package may not be that bad.
Here are the holder + lens work dimensions from Kamel:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZW2d5pzHco2rJYQo6

[ August 09, 2019, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 09, 2019 05:47 PM

So if I have this right, the 'factory' lens mount with the tab on it will fit and work?

Looking at your two test images I would be happy with both, So Kamel wouldn't have to print me a mount.

As long as it will fit the mod I am happy to buy a lens mount.

That said there is a substantial difference between 1900x1300 and 1300x960

The un modded Wolverine can do 1440x1080 albeit in rubbish mp4.

Looking at your test images I don't see a huge difference other than the overscan to include the sprocket hole.

I do like the idea of being able to scan the film from edge to edge to include the sprocket holes and edges.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I do have one question not related to the mod for Stan

During your work on the Wolverine are you able to tell me, for my own curiosity, what effect the super8/standard8 switch has on the gate and transport of the film.

I am not quite sure I understand what is going on there, does it just affect the distance and position that the claw pulls the film?

Does it also affect the camera for a different frame size?
There is a difference in frame size between the two, so how does the switch sort this out?

Will the mod be affect by differences between Super 8 and Standard 8?

Super 8 frame is 5.79mm 4.01mm
Standard 8 is 4.5 x 3.3mm

So I do wonder what happens when I flick that swich yet still see a full frame scan at the end of the process.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted August 09, 2019 08:09 PM

OK Mike, will try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge: My answers are in CAPS.
So if I have this right, the 'factory' lens mount with the tab on it will fit and work?

YES, WITH STOCK HOLDER THE BOARD CAN DO 1300x960 WHICH IN MY OPINION IS ALL THAT YOU NEED.

Looking at your two test images I would be happy with both, So Kamel wouldn't have to print me a mount.

AGREE. I SUGGEST GO STOCK AND SEE IF YOU ARE HAPPY WITH IT.
As long as it will fit the mod I am happy to buy a lens mount.

YES IT DOES.

That said there is a substantial difference between 1900x1300 and 1300x960

The un modded Wolverine can do 1440x1080 albeit in rubbish mp4.

THEIR OPTICAL REZ IS 720 x 480 DUE TO THE 8MM LENS THAT THEY USE. THEN THEY DOUBLE UP THE REZ DIGITALLY...

Looking at your test images I don't see a huge difference other than the overscan to include the sprocket hole.

OOPS NOT SURE IF I CROPPED BOTH OF THEM.
HERE IS THE lower rez ORIGINAL:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GpTnW44zp3W3vpy76

AND HIGHER REZ ORIGINAL:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/stfrLQThRvUnvn7y7

I do like the idea of being able to scan the film from edge to edge to include the sprocket holes and edges.
YES YOU CAN DO THAT - SEE THE ORIGINALS ABOVE
-------------------------------------------------------------

I do have one question not related to the mod for Stan

During your work on the Wolverine are you able to tell me, for my own curiosity, what effect the super8/standard8 switch has on the gate and transport of the film.

I am not quite sure I understand what is going on there, does it just affect the distance and position that the claw pulls the film?

Does it also affect the camera for a different frame size?
There is a difference in frame size between the two, so how does the switch sort this out?

Will the mod be affect by differences between Super 8 and Standard 8?

Super 8 frame is 5.79mm 4.01mm
Standard 8 is 4.5 x 3.3mm

So I do wonder what happens when I flick that swich yet still see a full frame scan at the end of the process.

OK, TWO THINGS HAPPEN WHEN YOU HIT THAT SWITCH. THE SWITCH ACTIVATES A MECHANICAL STOP AND THAT CHANGES TEH CLAW TRAVEL IF I RECALL THIS RIGHT. THE OTHER THING IS THE OPTOCOUPLER THAT SENDS TEH SIGNAL TO THE CONTROLLER. THAT IS WHAT THE SECOND CABLE BUNDLE IS FOR COMING FROM UNDER THE FILM GATE. THEY USE IT TO CONTROL THE FRAME CROPPING. WE REALLY DO NOT NEED IT BECAUSE WE HAVE A LARGER FRAME AND THE CROPPING IS DONE DURING POSTPROCESSING.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 10, 2019 03:58 AM

Thank You Stan

That all makes perfect sense.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted August 10, 2019 05:18 AM

for the capstan, the pulley that I designed is planned for the super 8 movie (step 4,235mm). But the capstan is an option for damaged perforations and I am planning a curved smooth pulley if the capstan is not used to protect the film from scratches. The wolverine's original ones are flat and scratch the film.

For lens holder, I design several heights because I do not know yet which height is the best to optimize focus and depth of field.

[ August 10, 2019, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 10, 2019 05:46 AM

That is very clever Kamel.

3D printing is a huge innovation

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted August 10, 2019 07:24 AM

when I'm finished, I'll put the original STL files on thingiverse to share with the community. This will allow everyone to print themselves or someone else to print the parts what they want.

I also have to work on the front cover to avoid stray lights and protect the electronic components...

I will send to Stan the prototypes printed for testing. [Smile]

[ August 10, 2019, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted August 10, 2019 09:44 AM

Glad it makes sense Mike. So yes, you will be able to do both 8 and super 8.

Thank you Kamel, the one that you sent me from Stemmer Imaging Group works for all resolutions.
I sent you the dimensions:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZW2d5pzHco2rJYQo6
Holder length including base = 20 mm
Thread depth (how deep the lens goes into the holder) for lo rez:
5.2 mm
Thread depth (how deep the lens goes into the holder) for hi rez:
3.34 mm

One note regarding the resolutions. In hi rez mode the lens gets closer to the object so the depth of the field gets narrower and the edges go slightly out of focus. The center has better rez that in lo rez mode but the edges get compromised.
At a higher level we can say that the lens is hitting its limits. A solution is to get the lens with higher F stop.
This might work:
https://scorpionvision.worldsecuresystems.com/Catalog/Machine-Vision-Lens/m12-lenses/2-3-format/s-mount-12mm-f4-0-far-field-lens

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted August 10, 2019 10:17 AM

Thank you Stan for the calculations and dimensions, In fact I was wondering if a height a little bigger could help ex: 24mm height with the holder base. to avoid having to screw or unscrew the lens to adjust the focus. but, maybe I'm wrong.

I will look at your link for optics. the search for quality is my main goal because digitization will be very long. As much as possible to do the best. [Smile]

While waiting for the progress of my tests, here are my best prints from the beginning with PETG filament and ABS. I will also try with nylon ... it is not perfect yet but it comes good... I am looking for solidity but also a good quality of finish (it will probably be a little sanding) ...

[ August 10, 2019, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted August 10, 2019 12:19 PM

Excellent work Kamel. If you are planning to have a longer lens holder the limit is at 23.32 mm total holder length according to the measurements I did yesterday. So around 22mm might do the trick.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted August 10, 2019 12:46 PM

I'm not a specialist in optics but if the lens holder is shorter (8,10,12mm) eventually it would improve the depth of field?...But it requires to advance the camera and change for an optical F8mm (Zoom in frame - if I understand correctly).

So we will stay on your tests Stan, that are excellent (very close to 80 lines of resolution). it is already a huge progress. [Smile]

I will try to order a better F12 lens, mine is a low end... And I'm going to redesign a 22mm lens holder.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 10, 2019 01:41 PM

Excellent work Kamel.
I wouldn't know where to begin with 3D printing.

I certainly agree with you about quality in capturing film, if it is going to be a long process, the end result needs to be stunning, that is easy with an image sequence.

I spent 18 months making a timelapse with a go pro and a canon eos 600 a while ago.

That was a whole lot of still images. 18 months, two camera cards, typical fps 1 frame per 10s on the go pro and 1 fps on the canon for faster sequences.

Two 64gb memory cards every friday to process over a beer, the final project went to 1.6TB

18 months of a demolition/building site where I have worked for the last 31 years

One thing I am looking forward to with the modified scanner will be going back to VirtualDub again.

I am very handy at turning still images in to video using VirtualDub, with all the tricks it has up it's sleeve..

This is one thing I am really looking forward to with the mod.

I have tried to understand avisynth a couple of times but I just can't do command line with ease because of my dyslexia.

I am good with numbers, letters mess with my head unless it is english and not code..

Letters and numbers and symbols in the same sentence is too much for me to grasp

I have used Film9 too, I think that is an excellent peice of VirtualDub front end.

I am very proud of this 18 month image sequence project.
It also includes the BBC Question Time tv show which came in to my theatre recently.

I couldn't resist doing another image sequence video and add cheesy music, like an old cine film.
I run the A/V for the theatre in the Question Time timelapse.

my timelapse project made with VirtualDub [Smile]

The final music edit

18 months in six minutes

[ August 10, 2019, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted August 10, 2019 11:32 PM

The board that I am doing Kamel allows for different holder/lens combinations so it is up to each individual user to pick the best combination for their use. I suggest going with the 9mm standoffs and 12mm f2.8 lens or 5mm standoffs and 12mm F4 lens. Both of these should work with your 22mm holder. The first one works with the stock holder.
Some fine footage Mike. Quite interesting to see the old buildings being torn down and the new ones being built.
BTW- I spend 1/2 day today getting the capstan sw running. Pretty close but have a few glitches. Will try to wrap it up tomorrow.
Looks like I need another board rev. The camera mount in the manual shows 24.5 mm spacing between the holes and in my foolishness I assumed that to be an inch... fooled me. It is pretty close but not exact and that could cause some issues with the corner focus.
Also want to add the flex connector so that the boards can be done in the factory.
So that adds a but of a delay for the boards to you Mike and Kamel. I could send you the ones that I have here for now if you want to play with them and then send you the new ones subsequently when they become available.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted August 11, 2019 03:00 AM

That's a very kind offer Stan but I am happy to wait.

I have a plenty to keep me occupied until the time comes to do my mod.

I'd like to be in a position whereby I have every component in front of me ready to go and only pull the scanner apart once.

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