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Author Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer
Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

- posted August 11, 2019 04:07 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Stan, it's like you want. I am very excited to test, but I am also late in my 3D prints and I can wait too. No problem.

We are close to the goal, it is only a few weeks. too happy with the progress of the project and it gives me a little more time to finalize on my side. [Smile]
Mike, nice work of patience. interesting result.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

- posted August 11, 2019 07:40 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK perfect. I will clean the board a bit and get the assembly set up. There is a local company that provide PCB assembly service. Will chat with them tomorrow.
Here is the capstan demo:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/W1sMwP7PXDMZDjKW8
It gives the capstan motor a nudge at 10 second intervals if the film is not advancing (motor coasting along) and if the power switch is on.

[ August 11, 2019, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

- posted August 11, 2019 10:04 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So close to the goal you can almost taste it.
The prospect of high quality frame by frame scans is palpable.

Loving the capstan test, particularly the 'molegrips' holding it steady.

Not something I would use but I can totally understand why Kamel sees fit to want it.

Probably a very sensible idea, along with the 3D printed guides that dont touch the film.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

- posted August 11, 2019 12:11 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ha ha they call them "vicegrips" on this side of the big swamp Mike.
You can still use the alert without the nudge. The circuit is there to connect the sonalert but obviously you still have to use the capstan and the motor, just do not connect the power to the motor, use the sensor part only.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

- posted August 11, 2019 01:46 PM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
vicegrips?
lol. sounds like a cheap 1980s Arron Spelling tv show.

What ever they are called, they did the job.

[ August 12, 2019, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

- posted August 11, 2019 02:13 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oops a spelling mistake.. Do it all the time.
Does not improve with age either [Smile]
Trying to get the Hirose connector library for Eagle PCB but looks like will have to create my own. That is the fine pitch connector that connects to the Wolverine power supply.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

- posted August 12, 2019 06:32 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As I said before: we dreamed about it, Stan did it! [Smile]

I will soon finalize the toothed pulley of the capstan, the 22m lens holder and the motor mount. I'm thinking about the front cover. It should have 3 parts. I will use the wolverine holes for fixing it.
the central part will be mobile to be able to install the film and then to protect it from outside lights. The goal is to make a closed box.
it will be necessary to provide a hole for the usb of the camera.
-

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

- posted August 12, 2019 06:39 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamel, I was thinking about a cover last night.

Now that our scanning time will increase it means more chance of debris being attracted to the gate area.

I am thinking about a typical plastic see thro storage tub that will sit on top of the complete machine, with vent holes cut in to the rear.

Not as elegant as your idea but I think it will do for me.

The thought of the scanner with no cover, perhaps scanning for seven hours or more, it will need some kind of dust protection during a scan.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

- posted August 12, 2019 08:33 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Definitely a good idea. We also have to watch the camera heat. The small fan inside can be turned on but it does not point towards the camera. Maybe rig up something so that the fan sits on top of the board towards the cam assembly. Or maybe just the vent holes on top and bottom of Kamel's cover.
-

Board V5 on order:
-

Has better cam alignment and also the power supply FPC connector. I did not remove the adapter board pads used for manual assembly - just in case...

[ August 12, 2019, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

- posted August 12, 2019 05:09 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
yes, I thought about it. or maybe add a small fan 30mmx30mm above the camera because mine also heats a lot. I can design a support for the fan and the ventilation holes are a very good idea.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

- posted August 13, 2019 09:28 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, a small fan or remount the existing one.
BTW - found another interesting lens:
https://scorpionvision.businesscatalyst.com/Catalog/Machine-Vision-Lens/m12-lenses/2-3-format/s-mount-12mm-f2-5-far-field-lens
It is very expensive:
£122.40
Shipping alone to the US is £60.
This lens should work well with the HD image size and 5mm spacers.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

- posted August 13, 2019 03:54 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Stan, it's is very expensive! In addition, it has a lot of distortion (1.2%). For the small super8 frame, this distortion is too much. the low distortion imagingsource lenses have a distortion of 0.15 / 0.2% max
: https://www.theimagingsource.com/products/optics/board-lenses/tis-low-distortion/. the scorpion macro-lenses are at 0.15/0.25%. Scorpion vision are very expensive in delivery costs (40/50€ for france).

But I agree that when you have a very good scanner, quality optics can greatly improve the quality of the frame by frame capture...
It is true ! quality is priceless ... but ... I'm willing to put a little more money if I'm sure there will be a real difference. [Smile]

what is interesting is the lens aperture of F5.6 which improves the depth of field, most of the small M12 optics are at F1.8 to f2.8...

I watched your link on your google drive. the update is from 07/28
v2 of the PCB. will there be an update of version 5? is eagle file compatible with designsparkPCB software?

I started in pcb designing because I would like to create a small board to modify my 3D printer and have an automatic bed leveling.
I make my 3d models in designspark which is a great free software to modeling. designsparkPCB is also to create PCBs but I only start learning...
It's exciting and very interesting [Smile]

BTW:
I will try to integrate a fan bracket and ventilation holes in my front cover design

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

- posted August 13, 2019 08:30 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good point about lens distortion Kamel. I agree we have to make sure that the optics are done right. Spent some more time looking at that while waiting for the new board and it seems that 9mm spacers may not be optimal for the 12mm lens. My calculations are here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/jDaaPkfTuDdPtCGw7
So, it seems that 12mm spacers(d = 50 mm) will give better focus and close to HD resolution. Will try that.
The board rev is V5.
I updated the the eagle.zip to V5.
Yes, the eagle files can be imported into sparkdesign:
https://designspark.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000059845-Can-I-import-Eagle-Designs-in-DesignSpark-PCB-

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

- posted August 14, 2019 10:40 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Question for Stan please.

So that I am ready for the mod, can you advise me here or in email or pm exactly what other bits and peices I am likely to need before I start pulling the Wolverine apart please.

I am happy with the camera, lens mount and lens.
I will buy those from the supplier here in the uk.

I have the image capture software installed on a laptop
It would be helpful to know what other bits I am likely to need.

Of course, I read you are still doing board revisions so things may change between now and when I receive my board.

I read about spacers for the camera.
Typical 5v psu to drive the board you are sending me.
USB lead to the laptop.
Three switches, single throw single pole?
A board to mount said switches perhaps?

I would like to be all ready with everything I need to make this happen when the board does arrive from you.

Thank You Stan. I know it's a little way to go yet, which is not a problem, but I can get things ready to crack on once it does arrive.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

- posted August 14, 2019 11:33 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
while waiting to find the right height of the camera spacers. I designed a support for the imagingsourcecamera that can replace the spacers. this will put a precise height.

-

I think I can send to Stan, to test prototypes printed in 3d next week if all goes well.. [Smile]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

- posted August 14, 2019 11:44 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Your list looks pretty good Mike.
- No need for the PSU. Uses the Wolverine PSU.
- Will send you the board to mount teh switches.
- Single pole double throw should be OK.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JU6KBH6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

- Fan cable is too short and need the extender cable.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013JRWCBU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

- Will send you spacers and the screws for the cam.
- need the usb cable for the laptop.
Aaaaand I think that is it. The board mount uses the existing screws. Ah yes will send you the cables for the switches that plug into the board. Bought a bunch of those.
Cheers.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

- posted August 14, 2019 11:45 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan thank You, you are very generous.

Kamel That spacer is a bit of genius indeed!

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

- posted August 14, 2019 12:10 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike, when Stan will have validated my 3D printing on the mod, I can send you too if you do not have the possibility to print. In any case, I will put my shared files on thingiverse.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted August 14, 2019 01:52 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not being an owner of a Wolverine, I have only a rough idea of what is going on here in this thread. But I must say how very impressive is the level of engineering expertise being applied to the design of the circuit boards, the solid modelling of the new components, and the redesign of the optical system.
What are you guys going to charge Wolverine for all your efforts? [Smile]

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Kev Morrison
Film Handler

Posts: 76
From: Land of the Mouse, USA
Registered: Feb 2018

- posted August 14, 2019 03:51 PM      Profile for Kev Morrison   Email Kev Morrison   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Not being an owner of a Wolverine, I have only a rough idea of what is going on here in this thread. But I must say how very impressive is the level of engineering expertise being applied to the design of the circuit boards, the solid modelling of the new components, and the redesign of the optical system.
What are you guys going to charge Wolverine for all your efforts?" [Smile]

Paul, I agree with you - I've become quite impressed with the brainstorming, testing and development of engineering fixes in this forum regarding Wolverine enhancements.

Maybe we have some folks here that have been working at Lockheed's "Skunkworks" out West in area 51....
[Big Grin] [Big Grin]

That being said - regarding the question about "charge Wolverine for all your efforts?", personally, I'd tiptoe quietly past Wolverine's front door...

Some businesses can get real weird about stuff like this. Let's hope that they do not.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

- posted August 14, 2019 04:02 PM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wolverine do watch this forum so perhaps in three years time we will see thier pathetic attempt.

STAN copyright everything now!
Kamel don't let wolverine get thier hands on your 3D images.

Yes it has been AMAZING to see what has happened since I had my Wolverine, and three motor changes and a couple of hundred customers paying £2 per 50ft so I could recover the initial cost of the scanner.

I sit here in a navy forum this evening, with a cold beer, chatting way and posting a bit of 720p cine film of my Mum on my aircraft carrier in 1976, and talking about how in the coming months, I hope to improve on those scans.

Stan is an absolute techincal cine legend.
Really.
If I ever met him, he would be very tipsy very quickly.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

- posted August 14, 2019 05:07 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If wolverine had produced a quality scanner with correct results, we would not try to improve it.

I was willing to pay more for better scanning quality, but the results with this scanner are too catastrophic with mp4 artefacts compression.

The "pro" version should allow a "pro" quality!... But this is not the case, and it is this disappointment that gives me the energy to try to do better.

Our films are precious!... In addition, it is a sharing of knowledge and non-commercial skills, just for enthusiasts who want to digitize their movies with the highest quality. [Smile]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

- posted August 14, 2019 07:49 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ha ha Area 51. No, far from that but thank you anyways. Yes, we are just a group of film enthusiasts that are eager to learn and improve.
Thank for the offer Mike and may take you up on that the next time I am in the UK.
Regarding the lenses, the calc I did last night does not hold water. Moving the camera away from the film will reduce the magnification not increase it.
Soooo, in order to get the HD rez, the camera has to be moved in closer to the film. But then we have a DOF issue. Possibly use the scorpionvision F5.6 lens but then we have distortion issue.

[ August 14, 2019, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

- posted August 15, 2019 04:12 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I made calculations on my side:
the imagingsource sensor is mm 5.7x4.28. the super8 frame is mm 5.79x4.01.
Full image of the sensor = 2592x1944 pixels. format 4/3.

For an M12 lens of f12, I find 48.05mm of Distance for full sensor capture.
if only one part of the sensor is used. for example HD (1920x1080). This brings to a useful sensor area at mm 4.2222 x 2.3777 for HD 1920x1080.
The calculation gives 51.35mm of Distance. (2.3777 > 4.01 S8 > 1080 pixels and 4.2222 > 5.79 > 1920 pixels). We can also use the Interest Area (for example 1440x1080) in IC Capture software.
In this case : sensor 3.1665 > 5.79 > 1440 pixels (HD cropped 4/3) gives 52.5mm Distance.

This lens is good : http://www.scorpionvision.co.uk/Catalog/Mac hine-Vision-Lens/m12-lenses/near-field-far-field-m12-lenses/s-mount-12mm-f2-8-macro-lens (but not IR Block, F2.8 aperture).

I think Imagingsource low distortion lenses are a good alternative.

An macro optical lens of f12mm would be perfect with an aperture of f5.6, an IR block and a low distortion (0.15%) of 10M pixels. [Smile]
But maybe that exists?...

[ August 15, 2019, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

- posted August 15, 2019 08:14 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You math is OK Kamel but the measurements that I did do not agree with it. The issue is that the effective focal length of the lens is not 12mm but very close to 10.5mm. For parallel light it is probably 12mm but we are very close to the object.
See my measurement results:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/K1GU6gZPuaLdym6r6
Your calc is in the first column and the rest is based on actual measurements.
The measurement was done by measuring the actual distance from the sensor to the film and then checking the rez of the cropped output frame.
That is why you have to go closer (d = 43mm) for HD rez and d = 3mm standoffs for higher than HD. At 3mm the camera is very close to the bracket and the edges get compromised due to DOF.

Regarding the lens distortion I ran distortion simulation at 1% and here is the result:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8fKPBoXd8C6LSiFa9

It is definitely noticeable.

Kamel, the supports are a good idea but may not work with the stock holder which has a lock screw on the side.

[ August 16, 2019, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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