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Author
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Topic: Blackhawk Films Case Question
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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014
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posted March 04, 2015 03:28 PM
Hi All,
I am curious if anyone can tell me the differences with the blackhawk super 8mm film cases.
For example, several of the films I have collected of blackhawk come in the Pink Cases, all mag sound prints. I have a couple pinks that are silent, but generally I only try to purchase sound... I also have a handful of the same in Green casing.
What is the difference.
The reason I ask is that I have noticed that sometimes 2 titles, pretty much identical in title and condition, get different prices. The green covers seem to get more, or at least the sellers try to ask more. Am I seeing things?
Cheers,
Matt
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Cheers,
Matt 📽
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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014
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posted March 05, 2015 11:33 AM
Thanx very much for that info.
Yeah, so far i cannot tell the difference on my current prints either in regards to box colour. I just noticed, for example that one auction has a green box items with several bids, whereas over the past few weeks the same print had none or little bids, same claimed quality, so it puzzles me. I ended up buying the pink box for the print in question and I felt it was a great print. Thanx for the help!
Cheers,
Matt
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Cheers,
Matt 📽
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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014
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posted March 06, 2015 06:20 PM
Thanx all!
Shorty, Do you agree with everyones findings here, or is there more to share on these boxes? So far, in summary, I am assuming:
1. Silver Boxes are the main goal.
2. Greens are newer than Pink and may be better, but will depend on who had them beforehand, or how BH printed these particular reels- basically a poke-and-hope.
Thanx in advace,
Matt
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Cheers,
Matt 📽
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Joe Caruso
Film God
Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted March 09, 2015 02:41 PM
Silver medallion releases came from new negs, often in origin with prsitine 35 reductions or top 16 pre-print - I'd go after these, especially in the Roach area, also Griffith, Lloyd, Keaton, and those marked with an 875 or 880 denote a scored picture, Blackhawk employed the finest (in the Chaplin Mutuals, the Van Beuren music/efects tracks were employed) - Olive Green boxes (when it was Lee Enterprises on the box-front), were nice, occasionally the 1975 negs weren't all up to snuff, so as it says, chance and examination (If you can hold the film through light, or perhaps run a bit, see if the opening is muddled, then seek out a better print)- Pink boxed L&H were the first-pressed, so to speak, on average top quality - Blackhawk did their best, what we have is what is around - Especially, the L&H silents, thsoe 35 negs (most of them anyway), are just not around, and Blackhawk saved what they could - Most any silent films are going to show some age, only natural - that is the Roach section, now if you want to go to other areas of Blackhawk, that's another story ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Cheers from Shorty
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Joseph Randall
Master Film Handler
Posts: 437
From: Wyckoff, NJ, USA
Registered: Jun 2015
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posted June 15, 2015 08:02 PM
The Blackhawk box can be a good indicator if it is actually the original box. I've received many Blackhawks that were in Blackhawk boxes, but not the original. Sometimes the wrong title was crossed out in ink and re-written. So always check that you are getting the original box as far as the seller knows. There's still always the chance that a silver box Laurel and Hardy might have originally been in a green box. As Stan says in GOING BYE-BYE!: "It could happen."
I'm not sure that Blackhawk automatically switched over to the silver boxes when they got newer negatives. They might have used some green L&H boxes that were left over rather than throw them out. Or they could have had only silver boxes left and some older prints that needed a box. "It could happen."
For the following, consider the L&Hs only.
IMHO, Blackhawk didn't get new negatives of every title for the "silver box era". In their bulletins, they usually made a big deal for a major upgrade in pre-print material. I recall upgrades for TWO TARS, BIG BUSINESS, and SONS OF THE DESERT were mentioned in their bulletins in the mid to late '70s. TWO TARS and BIG BUSINESS also had their original main titles restored, in 1975 and 1977, respectively. These could have originally been in either pink or green boxes. I had a sliver box TWO TARS that wasn't as good as my green box copy. The upgraded BIG BUSINESS was made from the European negative, while an improvement image-wise, was shot from a different camera angle.
Never publicized at the time, they upgraded WAY OUT WEST. The earlier copies have all original main titles, while the upgraded one has a combination of Blackhawk titles and original.
You really need to go title by title with Blackhawk L&Hs when discussing the best printings. I've only rarely had 2 copies to compare, but as you know you can learn a lot from other collectors. Sometimes the lab might have had a bad day. I returned a handful of prints to Blackhawk back in the day, usually for poor sound, and usually received a better copy in return.
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Joe Caruso
Film God
Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted June 16, 2015 07:08 AM
No, WAY OUT WEST always had Blackhawk and origianl titles - The Silver-boxed editions WERE top-quqlity, or at least the best they could get from better negs - I feel Blackhawk DID utilize better pre-print, thus heralding the arrival of newer boxes and material - True also, the green boxes had a sharp contrast but some focus problems (HOG WILD and MEN O WAR, particularly) - Even the pink issues had this problem - BIG BUSINESS and TWO TARS were the best from the silver editions, I think, then the "Vitaphone-Scored" silents which came in the green were of singular value - You know, the same could be argued with reagrds to Columbia, Castle and Ken quality, though they had no re-releases - Oddly enough, only L&H went through a 3-box metamorphasis, not Chaplin, Our Gang, no one else - Shows you great artistry knows no bounds - Shorty
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Joseph Randall
Master Film Handler
Posts: 437
From: Wyckoff, NJ, USA
Registered: Jun 2015
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posted June 16, 2015 02:07 PM
The first Blackhawk WAY OUT WEST, which I had a copy of at one point, was taken from Film Classics where they blotted out Leo the Lion on all original title cards. My current copy starts with Blackhawk's "WAY OUT WEST starring Laurel and Hardy", followed by the rest of the original credits.
My TWO TARS silver box print was printed too dark, so I sold it and kept the green box one, before eventually upgrading it to 16mm.
At some point, OUR RELATIONS was upgraded to use mostly original titles, though my copy has all Blackhawk titles. Image quality is top notch, though.
So the Chaplins never came out in the silver box? If they did, I doubt the Mutuals were re-restored after Shepard's Hurculean restoraton effort in 1975. I have some titles in pre-restoration and post-restoration, and in some cases pre is better -- notably THE RINK. One has scenes missing from the other, and vice versa. Blackhwak made a big deal out of this in 1975, so wouldn't they have made a big deal in the late '70s if they truly upgraded their L&H prints?
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