Wolverine-Hawkeye Telecine

[Stan Jelavic]

Hi Bruce.
The 16mm lens would work similar to 72BUC because the pixel pitch
37UX has

Pixel size

H: 2.4 µm, V: 2.4 µm

72BUC has:

Pixel size

H: 2.2 µm, V: 2.2 µm

The advantage of 37UX is that it has more pixels so that the crop area has more flexibility. In another words it would be easier to adjust the camera centering for both film formats.
But according to David there is no appreciable difference when comparing to the 12mm so I am not sure what the advantage would be. Unfortunately, you can not go F2.8 with 16mm because the DOF would degrade (longer focal lengths require higher F stop). And centering becomes more critical.

Good hint regarding grainy film.

I do have Nick's source and did compile it at one point and has functionality very similar to IC Capture plus more. Once I am done with the boards could resurrect that and with Nick's permission create another version.
I am aware of that bug originally discovered by Mike. You can try save and load config. It may help.

[David Brown]

Well, to update the 16mm lens saga, I have been able to adjust the lens mount and can now capture both S8 and R8 without moving the lens. I've stopped modifying the mount for now, until V12 arrives.

It looks like this, camera can move left/right AND up/down.



I know we are all here because we are trying to control the cost of digitizing 8mm. If you missed the offer from Brad Miller, I'd suggest you read it. If you have some "valuable footage" you might want to consider using him. His equipment & prices are great without the 25% off in June.

I digitized my first reel with the Wolverine and was surprised how bad it looked. I sent the same reel out to be digitized at 4K, then dropped back to 2K since the price was almost $1/foot *$%#!.

I will have to compare the three (the one on Hawkeye, soon to be done).

[Stan Jelavic]

Good work David. Looks like you are still looking at using the 16mm lens. Do you still think that the there will be some improvement in resolution comparing to the 12mm?

[Bruce Davis]

Hi, this board has been down for a few days.
Stan regarding depth of field with the 16mm lens.
David's Lens https://www.aico-lens.com/product/16...ns-ach1622mac/
I assume for the DFM 37UX178-ML board one would need to go for the 2/3" format lens with this sensor.
I remember David mentioning that it was harder to find the focal point with the f5.6 lens that he has, there was a much larger band of movement/adjustment (between in focus, out of focus), whereas the 12mm lens was easier to focus because the amount of movement was much less. Does this have to do with DOF.

David that mount is certainly flexible in both the x & y axis, I used something similar on my 3d printer to allow alignment of the z axis motor lead screws. Good to hear you found a successful position for the camera.
Would certainly be a very interesting comparison between the two captures.
Regards - Bruce

[Stan Jelavic]

Hi Bruce. I posted the 8mm forum update on the FB page. The forum moderator did inform me. Good point on lens format. I will have to do the calculation. We are pushing the lens beyond its spec'd distance and still could run into trouble if we want to cover the full sensor.
Yes, the focus adjustment sensitivity is directly related to DOF. But that is not my main concern. The main concern is if you use 16mm and F2.8 and focus for the center of the image the edges may go blurry due to a very narrow DOF range.
A camera adjustment PCB may be another alternative for people without 3D print capability, like me

[Bruce Davis]

Stan thanks for the info, was not aware that these S-mount lenses have problems focusing across the full width/range of the sensor. From your remark this could be overcome by moving the camera board further away from the film, but we have limited room.
Regards - bruce

[Stan Jelavic]

The reason Bruce is DOF. The center of the film is closer to the lens than corners. If the depth of field is narrow then if you focus at the center the edges will be out and vice versa. The solution is to use higher F stop (narrower aperture). The longer the focal length, the higher the F stop requirements. Recall with telephoto the background is almost always blurry.

[David Brown]

Stan, looks like V12 will be here tomorrow!!! Once that is running, I'll toss my extra parts into a box (there are a lot). I hope you find something useful.

A quick thought on the 37ux178. I know it is a better sensor than the 72buco2, but is it remarkably better?

The 16mm lens I have is better than the 12mm, but I don't think it will be remarkably better in the end. Differences can be seen in test capture stills below.

8mm movies are usually less than perfect to begin with and because there is so much motion going on, it's hard to pixel peep.

Sounds like Bruce must have some footage that has some exposure extremes. I might find some too. Using the IC Capture HDR , from a single exposure will help most scenes. Making multiple exposures, capturing each scene twice, then using post HDR will look even better. That's not something you want to do unless we're talking about only a few scenes. The 37ux178 would certainly be more convenient.

I wish I could find sample footage from sensors to compare machine cameras. No demand I think!

Here are some more 12/16 shots. Sharpness setting=0, auto exposure and white balance.


The res chart is only a sample card, not to be used for real tests. I'ts handy though.
The head from "much ado about golf". I think someone must have scratched this into the negative.


https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HY0gZdTtT0tg51OPTFXFZHD8L7RDnW3T?usp=sharing

[Stan Jelavic]

Thank you David. May be possible to use the parts. I will contact you when I get them.
I looked at your images and did not see much difference on my laptop. Will have another look.

[Bruce Davis]

Hi David, thanks for the images, there does seem to be a difference in the overall shade or tint (hope that's the right term), the 16mm images look more correct or accurate to me, seems more contrast, not sure if that is good or bad.
Regards - Bruce

Should mention that the first image of each pair above is the 12mm lens and second is 16mm lens.

[David Brown]

Bruce, your right about the tint. I had some difficulties with the color balance. These are not retouched but I could have turned the saturation down.

Here's what I noticed. The 16mm has a little more magnification and holds the sharpness into the corners (f5.6 vs f2.8). That's only noticeable on the diagonal lines.

BUT, there should have been even more magnification. These images are all using the full sensor 2592x1944, but the 12mm should not be. Something is odd here.

I pulled the lenses off the pc board and fixed them to a microscope mount. It's easier to swap them and quickly nail the focus. Since I already had the 12mm in the default mount and spacing from the last time I used it, I just focused it and assumed it was in the right position. I'll check that later.



My point was that they both look pretty good and I don't think anyone will ever notice the corner softness of the 12mm when watching the movie.

BUT, the 12mm was limited to 1280x1024, so I'm clearly have the distance from the "film plane" wrong.

Not an accurate comparison then.

[Stan Jelavic]

David, are these pictures taken by the microscope? If so then as you say it is not a good comparison. With the 12mm you can still cover the whole sensor with the microscope. In Wolverine the mounting bracket is in the way so we cannot.
I actually tried the 12mm at higher magnification by shortening the spacers and using the mount without the set screw and experienced corner softness and gave up on that.
If you are using the microscope, then back off the lens and the distance to get the same sensor coverage as in Hawkeye.

[Stan Jelavic]

V12 update:
So far I have build 14 boards and 7 panels with pre-wired switches. Seven panels to go. Shipped complete modified Wolverine to Merv and the kit to David. Ran out of padded envelopes. Will get them tomorrow and will continue with the shipments. All 13 kits (1 is to stay) should be done and shipped by the end of next week. At that time I will start with the rest of the units.
Have not heard from Bill McCormick. He indicated that he needed parts only. I built the kit for him but since I cannot get hold of him I will just ship the unit to the next person on the list.

[Kamel Ikhlef]

Hello David,
We are starting to deconfine in France. The post office is open again in my village.
If all goes well. I send you tomorrow the small SMPTE clip which has been ready for more than 2 months.
I hope it helps for your very interresting testing.

Hello Bruce,
I get better images with the 16mm but I have to move up the camera a lot more (70mm from the film plan).
The focus is also more delicate.

Hello Stan,
I am very impatient to have my V12 complete Kit.

[Stan Jelavic]

It is coming along pretty good Kamel. Should see it soon.