Wolverine-Hawkeye Telecine

[Stan Jelavic]

Very nice Kamel. This should work for all 3 types of cameras. Here is the idea for the monitor solution.

[Stan Jelavic]

V12 update:
All units gone. There is a 4 week lead time on 4pin picoblade cables so expect long delays on any new orders.

[Kamel Ikhlef]

Stan,
this is the principle that I don't understand: what exactly will it be used for?
Is it a tensioner or a sensor?

David,
here is a short video : How the new M12 Lens holder thread working.
sorry for the poor quality filmed quickly with my old smartphone.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wp2...ew?usp=sharing

[David Brown]

Kamel, I'm still not able to access your Google Drive.

Stan I think your "monitor" is a new location for the capstan?

I have not been capturing frames yet. I just wanted to watch the film transport. I will start capturing some footage now and look for jitter.

My takeup motor might be an issue. It stopped running shortly before I received the v12. I was only working with the lens mount so I ignored it. If I remember correctly, it still didn't work with V12 until I ran at 2 fps. Maybe the gears jammed? Now it runs all the time.

I have no take up problems running at 0.5 fps or 1 fps via turbo. They don't have a variable take up speed.

If no one else mentions this, it's just me!

[Kamel Ikhlef]

OUPS ! Sorry,

David,

Here the new Links :

Video : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wp2...ew?usp=sharing
2K New M12 Lens thread : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LM0...ew?usp=sharing
4k new Lens Holder v01 : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Pqi...ew?usp=sharing
4K New lens Holder v02 : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ASB...ew?usp=sharing
Below Block Ring Zip File.
Have fun

[Stan Jelavic]

Yes the monitor is the capstan. Changed the name to monitor because it does not pull the film when there is a jam. It just monitors the film progress. Should pick a better word for it. This could have a smooth pulley connected to the motor. Essentially the same solution what you use David except that it is at the different location.
I tested the 2FPS and takeup is indeed somewhat sluggish at the beginning of the reel. Changed the takeup timing for fast speed and now it behaves the same as with slow speed. Tested it with 300 feet of film and the jitter seems reasonable.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/uVKQY5xbhafSzZ3c9

A few more notes:
Even with the new circuit for takeup there is still some small jitter. The rubber pulley somewhere in the film path helps.
Re takeup motor issues. If it fails and you suspect the V12, connect it back to the original connector on the power supply. It should work there (pulse mode).

[Bruce Davis]

Hi All, I determine the amount of jitter by viewing the frames on the monitor as the film is advancing through the gate. I have found my leaders are thicker and therefore more stiff/rigid than the S8 film and therefore behave/respond differently through the transport than does the actual film.

Was just browsing to look for Sony IMX226LQJ & IMX178LQJ information and image comparisons.
https://machinevisionstore.com/catalog/details/1829
https://machinevisionstore.com/catalog/details/1838
It is a different make of camera but they use the same Sony sensor models, the specs are for the monochrome versions, but should have some relevance.
I was mainly interested in comparing Dynamic Range between the two Sony sensors.
Sony IMX178LQJ - Quantum Efficiency: 81.0%, Dynamic Range: 72.8dB and Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 41.5dB.
Sony IMX226LQJ - Quantum Efficiency: 80.0%, Dynamic Range: 71.0dB and Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 40.4dB.

Currently used sensor:-
Micron MT9P006 - Quantum Efficiency: 60.0%, Pixel dynamic range 67.74dB, Signal-to-Noise Ratio 38.5dB.

Remark/comment I came across, this is probably obvious to those more experienced:-
Having smaller pixel sizes does have some disadvantages,
or at least some considerations that must be taken into
account. The main consequences of smaller pixels are:

„ Higher demand on lens optics
„ Smaller (shallower) depth of field, and the need for more precise adjustment
„ Reduced low light sensitivity
„ Combined with a higher number of pixels higher data rate and reduced frame rate

Thanks everyone
David, I Look forward to your evaluation of the DFM 37UX226-ML.

Might be of interest to someone:-
https://machinevisionstore.com/conte...els-better.pdf

Regards - Bruce

[Gary Killingsworth]

Hi, Stan. I am in the process of purchasing the camera, lens, and lens mount for the kit. Will the DFM 37UX226-ML work with the kit without modification (or is this still unknown?). If so, do we know whether this model offers substantially better image quality than the DFM 72BUC02-ML? I realize you guys might still be evaluating this, so thanks in advance for your reply.

[Stan Jelavic]

Bruce, I did not use the leader to check for jitter. Just used the beginning of the reel to check for takeup performance. Used the whole reel for jitter. As the reel fills up with film the jitter appears to increase slightly because the force on the film increases.
Gary, we are still evaluating the new camera and maybe if you wait a bit we will be coming up with the test results. Here are possible advantages over the DFM 72BUC02-ML
- better dynamic ratio (rendering of dark and bright areas) but not sure if significantly better
- better dark image performance with lower noise
- 4K capable
- easier camera alignment
- possibly overall better image

disadvantages:
- cannot use the V12 back panel usb connector. Have to connect directly to the camera
- not sure how well IC Capture software will work with this new camera
- mechanical fit seems to be OK but there is some risk that mods may be required

There is what I collected so far.

[Stan Jelavic]

One more thing the FPS rating is higher. This should improve jitter because the camera trigger can be moved into the area where the film is stable. I.e. if you move it forward too much it will hit the beginning of the claw drag, and backwards the end of the claw drag. That is why the exposure should be short.

[Gary Killingsworth]

Thanks, Stan. Will hold off ordering the camera for a bit.

[Stan Jelavic]

Interesting specs Bruce:

Sony IMX178LQJ - Quantum Efficiency: 81.0%, Dynamic Range: 72.8dB and Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 41.5dB.
Sony IMX226LQJ - Quantum Efficiency: 80.0%, Dynamic Range: 71.0dB and Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 40.4dB.


The specs I posted earlier

indicate that IMX178LQJ is better by 10 log 425mV/280mV = 1.8 dB
and that is exactly what the dynamic range difference is in the specs that you posted.

So, if we look at the saturation voltage difference:

10 log 8=945/810 = 0.6 dB better for IMX178LQJ

What that indicates is that IMX178LQJ is 0.6dB better in bright whites and 1.2 dB better in dark blacks.

What does that visually mean?

Not much really. It is 6 dBs per 1 F stop. Barely noticeable.



For the existing camera the dynamic range is:
67.74. dB

Say we pick IMX226LQJ with 71dB dynamic range:

71 - 67.74v = 3.26 dB
Definitely better but 0.5 stops... not really much.

BUT - the interface in the existing camera is 8 bits only and the new cams are 12 bits/14bits - 4 bit difference. That is 4 F stops.

Actually I am simplifying this a bit. Don't want to confuse you totally. But here it is anyways. There are two parts of the camera electronics that contribute to the dynamic range. The sensor itself and the interface.

In the current camera there is a mismatch. The sensor has 64.74 dB dynamic range but the interface is only 48 (6dB * 8 bit interface). So in the current camera we are really limited to 48dB and there is a potential of gaining up to 24 dB (actually 23 dB) going with the new cameras.

But we use WDR so the improvement will not be 4 F stops but definitely we will be better and more consistent from scene to scene.

The same reasoning does not work when going from 12bit to 14bit. 12bit is already 72dB of dynamic range which is very close to the sensor spec so the 12bit /14bit difference is barely noticeable as already shown in one of my previous posts.

Based on all of this I would go with Sony IMX226LQJ...

[Bruce Davis]

Hi Stan, thanks for the explanation and comparisons, this is a very complex subject (at least for me) but the way you have explained it makes some sense to me. I did not realise that the 8bit/12bit interface would make such a large difference. One F stop seems a lot to me, either doubling of halving the amount of light to reach the sensor?

With HDR I have read that cameras take 2, 3 or more images at different exposures + or - 1 or 2 F stops (exposure bracketing) and then these images are combined to give a better overall balance to the image between dark and light areas. How does HDR function, with the DFM 37UX226-ML or existing Micron MT9P006 camera and the IC Capture program.

Your recommendation to go for the Sony IMX226LQJ is valued as you would know best.

This is an interesting page also:-
https://thinklucid.com/tech-briefs/c...sensor-review/
Quite a bit of difference in saturation capacity between the sensors.

Thanks and regards - Bruce

[Stan Jelavic]

Yes that is an interesting page Bruce. Not sure if it is useful when comparing against the existing camera though but good to know these terms. With
DFM 72BUC02-ML
we have only 8 bits of pixel data. Each bit doubles up the value. The largest number represented by 3 bits is 8. The largest number represented by 4 bits is 16 (double). Doubling the value is equivalent to 6dB increase. That is where 6dB comes from.
So, 8 bits can give us only 6dBx8bits = 48 dB of dynamic range or 8 F stops.
So in the F-stop picture above, limit the range to 8 F stops. And say the auto exposure puts the range in the center. You will lose the brightest whites. and darkest blacks. But don't get me wrong, an evenly lit picture will still be OK because the picture dynamic range will be narrower and 8 F stops will cove it. But the picture with mixed dark and white areas is in trouble. And we have seen this.
The WDR comes to the rescue. It analyses the picture and takes dynamically assigns the bits to the area that are deemed important and take away bits from the area that is not. The problem is that what may not be important to some algorithm could be important to us
The new cameras do not have that issue, 72 dB is enough to cover the range of brightness of most scenes. So no WDR required.

So this is what we can do. Find a film scene with bright cloudy sky and some dark shadows. Grab the picture with WDR on.

Turn WDR off.

Now since the new camera is 4 F stops better we can assume that 2 F stops are at the dark end and 2 F stops at bright end. 2 F stops are equivalent to changing the exposure to double or half. So we can take 3 bracketing shots with WDR off -2,0,+2 F stops and run them through HDR sw. The compare against the original. Should be interesting to see if there is a significant difference.

[Stan Jelavic]

Updated Hawkeye User Manual to V9.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Vc6...ew?usp=sharing

It has the new front panel installation instructions.